Having attended the comemmoration of the new York memorial at Chatel-Chehery last weekend, I was indeed pleased that Alvin C. York had been remembered and an everlasting memorial had been erected. However, there are aspects of Lt.Colonel Mastriano's claim that his site of York's fight which do not add up.
The Sergeant York Project team (http://www.sergeantyorkproject.com/) conducted professional investigations in France during 2005 and 2006. Led by Dr. Tom Nolan of MTSU, compelling evidence was discovered by that team which indicates that the true fight site of Alvin York is around 800 meters from where Mastriano has claimed it to be.
Despite offers for Mastriano to join the Project team, he declined and conducted his own investigations.
The Project team found a Unit Collar disc from the 328th Infantry Company G at their site. This does give a good and firm indication that the fight took place in that area.
No such evidence has been found by Mastriano.
It has been the intention of the York Project Team that scholars in the U.S. should, after studying the evidence, determine and make a ruling based upon the best case presented to them. Up until several weeks ago, the Army Center of Military History had agreed to publish both Dr. Nolan's paper and Lt. Colonel Mastriano's, inviting comment from all.
Dr. Nolan has since been informed his paper will not be published because it 'is not in the national interest' This appears to be a clear-cut case of the army closing ranks and protecting it's own. Needless to say, the arrangements for the erection of the Memorial at Chatel were by that time almost completed.
A professional and academic study has been shunned as have the people of the U.S. in particular those from Tennessee.
To move the memorial is not an option, but to expect scholarly examination of the findings of the York Project has to be of primary importance, the science of archaeology, geography and history demand that future generations are presented the best available picture for what took place in the Argonne forest in 1918, particularly when it involves one of America's finest.
Without scrutiny of Dr. Nolan's findings, this will not take place.
We need those who feel that there has been a wrong-doing to lobby for this wrong to be righted.
68 comments:
It would appear that there should be an examination of all information available. Why this is not happening seems to be beyond the realm of reason. The only conclusion that one may come to is, as with most cases of this type of behavior, someone knows that their findings are without factual evidence to back them up or there is something else going on behind the scenes that would benefit not examining the evidence. It is my understanding that the findings of Lt. Col. Mastriano used to come to his conclusions are based upon German records, "because they are very good at documentation." I feel that the American soldiers who made reports, which were used by the York Project Team and yeilded results, should be considered. To not do so, it would appear to me, is to call Sgt. York and the other Americans "Liars!"
What no one is telling the readers is that there was another group who conducted research at Chatel Chehery and found the actual site of the York incident.
LTC Mastriano has distorted history with his version of the York incident and it seems that the US Army Center of Military History (CMH) is playing a role in suppressing the research of the group from Tennessee led by Dr. Tom Nolan. http://www.sergeantyorkproject.com. In the fall issue of Army History both the reports of Dr. Nolan and LTC Mastriano were going to be published so a scholarly discussion would follow and shed light on the actual events. CMH has only now, at the last minute, said they are not going to publish Dr. Nolan’s report due to “lack of reader interest”. In the meantime they are preparing for the fall issue that will feature LTC Mastriano’s article.
LTC Mastriano has actually found the hill that was in the center of the attack of the 2nd Battalion 328th Infantry. The actual York site is in the ravine southwest of Hill 223 exactly as reported by ALL of the US Army witnesses and official history of the 82nd Division.
LTC Mastriano has relied solely on faulty and incorrect German reports of the battle and has ignored the primary US sources that give very specific details to the true location of the York incident. He confuses the reader by filling his report with useless information about his team, military acronyms and current military doctrine. There is no “real” substance to his report that indicates anything about the location of the York incident. He lists a lot of references and alludes to finding critical information in the German archives about the location of the fight, but does not actually show anything that makes any sense in his report. The questions he asks are his questions so, of course he can answer yews to all.
If LTC Mastriano is correct then I think he should be required to demonstrate why all of the relevant US testimony about the specific location of the fight is incorrect. For his theory to be true he would have to discount the following: The 82nd Division History, the maps and accompanying testimony of MAJ Buxton and York’s Company Commander CPT Danforth, 2/328th INF Battalion Commander MAJ Tillman, all of the living patrol members testimonies, the graves registration blanks that give the coordinates to the graves of the patrol members killed in the fight and those are to list just a few.
LTC Mastriano will counter this argument by asking “how many hours did the other group spend in the German archives?” Sorry, but that is not good enough.
LTC Mastriano’s claim is based on two things; he believes his location is the only place possible for York to have captured soldiers from the various German units who were in this area and that he found 21 or more .45 cartridges in the same spot. Both of these criteria are irrelevant and a thorough reading of ALL of the evidence will demonstrate that LTC Mastriano is actually reporting about the center of the Battalion attack that day.
Please contact Dr. Nolan or his group’s web site for details of how to access Dr. Nolan’s dissertation on this subject. There you will find the true circumstances and location of the York incident.
http://www.sergeantyorkproject.com
IF the other team's case was not compelling - the French would not have allowed the construciton of the trial and monument. I say - get over it.
I visited the other site and read their paper (www.sgtyorkdiscovery.com) - their case is quite compelling and I must agree with Anonymous. The tone of your "outage" is quite juvenile and not academic in tone. ALthough most folks like a conspiracy - there is no way the the Center of Military History could order the French to build a trail and monument.
To quote a famous American, "Lighten up Francis!"
Michael Kelly - you must be joking ! I know Mastriano and he is no monster.
The truth is - you threw your lot in with the wrong team - and you are the one with a financial interest in this! Your last tour out there - on the way over-priced five day trip is evidenced of that ($2,000).
Please do not bend the truth to save yourself from embarrassment.
Please delete me from your distro list and I will never use Bartlett's Battlefield Tours!
The other side of the story:
This is cut and pasted from the other team's report:
How can we know for certain?
Our investigation was initiated in the archives, researching every detail of the York story from both the German and American perspective. This resulted in the most comprehensive view of the York story. The German archives proved central, with the German maps and documents putting SYDE where York’s actions earned the Medal of Honor. In fact – there is only one possible area in the entire Argonne Forest where this event could have happened. In over four-years of war, there was no other location in the Argonne Forest where the 120. Württembergische Landwehr Regiment, 125. Württembergische Landwehr Regiment, 210. Prussian Reserve Regiment served together. This narrowed down the search area considerably.
The Four Pillars of military research
We applied a rigid academic discipline to our investigation. The following outlines our research methodology, screening criteria and basis for our findings.
Our research methodology is centered upon four pillars of historical analysis:
1. Primary source research in seven German and five American archives and the fusion of over 300 primary source records.
2. Classic military intelligence terrain analysis, based upon Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB).
3. Classic military doctrinal templating (German and American 1917-1918 tactical doctrine).
4. The physical artifact evidence.
By fusing these with battlefield archeology, eye-witness accounts and terrain analysis, SYDE discovered the exact York spot.
The four-pillars that led to the discovery:
I. Exhaustive research of the American and German archives: The key to the discovery was the German archives, which provided the missing piece of the puzzle (as to where to search) with over 200 unit reports and eye-witness accounts (in addition to the US Archival data). This is the mortal flaw in the rival group’s assertion. They did not spend one day in any German archive and launched into field research with only half of the story. This deprived them of over 200 primary source battle logs, chronicles, maps and eye-witness accounts. Failure to use the German archives creates fatal data gaps that no amount of geospatial technology can overcome. Without accurate data, you will end up in the wrong location.
Interestingly, the Germans actually had a more accurate picture of events in October 1918 – as they were on the defensive and had well-document deployments, which described the terrain in important detail. This data was fused with the important American archival data ensured that our investigation would be on target. For instance, several key German participants referred to a trench near the meadow where the fight took place. Any expedition must have a trench near their proclaimed York Spot. There is only ONE trench in the ravine and meadow (adjacent to our discovery), this should be near the York spot.
II. Classic military terrain analysis: We also applied Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB). Understanding how the Germans used terrain is a key aspect of the search for the York Spot. After four-years of continuous warfare, the German Army was a master of using every terrain feature possible to bolster their defense. As General Pershing stated:
The Germans made every use of the favorable terrain to oppose our advance by cross and enfilading artillery fire, especially from the bluffs on the eastern edge of the Argonne Forest and the heights east of the Meuse. His light guns and the extensive use of machine guns along his lines of defense, in the hands of well trained troops, were a serious obstacle.
With an understanding of the disposition of the belligerents on 8 October 1918 one can add meat the bones, by terrain analysis and intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield (IPB).
III. Classic military doctrinal templating – Analysis of doctrinal templating Played an important part in our investigation. We approached this by using contemporary German 1917-1918 doctrine. A school trained military theoretician helped with this portion of the process. This put a perspective on the German and US operations that occurred, in consideration of the terrain and weather as outlined above in the IPB process and considerably narrowed down where the York feat could have occurred. This was an area of particular strength for our team as it was composed of officers from four different armies.
IV. The physical artifact evidence – this should compliment the IPB, military doctrine and terrain to confirm or deny the correct location. The artifacts should be located in specific areas, in particular conditions that correspond to the York story. This is exactly what we uncovered in our field research, artifacts in a specific pattern and condition that tells the York story without leaps of faith or lengthy explanations. This is another challenge faced by the rival York research group. At their claimed location, they uncovered hundreds of unfired French Chauchat rounds. Although this was used by the AEF, none of the 17 Americans involved in the York feat carried this weapon.
The Condition of the Battlefield - Today:
There is enough battlefield litter (remnants of war) for someone to fabricate a story that they found the “York Spot.” To avoid this pitfall, one must study the German & US archives and understand German 1918 military tactics (and use of terrain). From these, criteria were developed to confirm the York location.
Detailed Screening Criteria to Confirm or Deny the York Spot
To verify the find, the physical artifact evidence had to compliment the IPB, military doctrine and terrain by passing the test of a series of screening criterion with 100% accuracy. Our site passed all the criteria. The complete list included:
There must be a “yes” to all of these points to be at the correct location of York’s action:
a. Does it agree with historical facts about German units involved and unit defense locations?
b. Does the location make sense historically?
c. Is the location consistent with contemporary German and American tactics techniques & procedures (TTPs)?
d. Is it along the combined flanks of the German 125 and 120 Regiments?
e. Does the terrain match the February 1919 photographs taken during BG Lindsey’s investigation of SGT York’s combat action on 8 October 1918?
f. Is it supported by battlefield archeology?
g. Is it close to the 1/120 regiment battlefront and within the 1/120th sector?
h. Is it logical from a tactical military perspective?
i. Does it agree with written German and American testimony?
j. Is it located where the machine guns are in the fight - engaging Americans in the valley?
k. Is it on terrain that dramatically impacted the outcome of the battle (decisive terrain)?
l. Does it agree with the battle progression/sequence as recorded by the 2nd Landwehr Division and the battle sequence as recorded by all of the American and German units involved in the action?
m. Is the location positioned where the German machine gunners were able to observe both the action of the American 328th Infantry Regiment trapped in the valley and the meadow where York attacked the 120th?
n. Is it close to a trench (York's and Vollmer's testimony)?
o. Is it near two roads that head east - out of the Argonne (York’s testimony)?
p. Is it close to Vollmer's headquarters?
q. Is it located where both the 120th and 125th would suffer sufficient damage that would cause the line of the German 2nd Landwehr Division (Württembergische) to collapse?
1. Does it agree with historical facts about German units involved and unit defense locations? Yes.
York took prisoners from the following four German units:
1. 120. Württembergische Landwehr Regiment
2. 125. Württembergische Landwehr Regiment
3. 210. Prussian Reserve Regiment
4. 7. Bayern Mineur Kompanie
The location where York earned the Medal of Honor must be where prisoners can be taken from each of the units mentioned above. In particular, the specific location must be along the 120th and 125th regimental borders. It was here that the 120th’s Vollmer received the 210th Prussian soldiers and where he and the 210th were captured. It was also here that the 125th flanking machine guns wheeled about to engage the 17 Americans.
The German archives show that there is only one location in the entire Western Front where these units served together. This is depicted on the graphic above. This is precisely at the location where we found evidence of York’s exploits.
2. The location must agree with German defensive locations. Yes.
The German unit dispositions described in the archives is precise. Research in the battle chronicles of twenty military units verified that the SYDE discovery is accurate. The discovery agrees with German doctrine, is logical from a military perspective and in conformity with period TTPs. The Germans deployed many of their forces around Humserberg, the key terrain, which provides excellent observation, has good fields of fire, makes use of key terrain, employs natural obstacles and has two axis of advance to support the planned German counterattack. This is why the 120th and 125th Landwehr Regiments were positioned here.
3. Is it along the flank of the German 125th and 120th Regiments? Yes.
The German Division Commander, General Adolf Franke, designated the southern edge of Humserberg as the border between the 120th and 125th Landwehr Regiments. This regimental border is important as York had to be near it; otherwise he could not have captured soldiers from the 125th. Our discovery is within 20 meters of this border.
The report of the 120th Regiment states the following:
The flank of 6th Company reported an enemy surprise attack. Next, the remnant of 4th Company and personnel from the 210th Regiment were caught by this surprise attack, where Lieutenant Endriss was killed. The company was shattered or was captured. Also First Lieutenant Vollmer ended up in the enemy’s hands. Now the situation was worse. Bad news followed more bad news from Chatel to the Schöne Aussicht a large enemy column moved towards the Schliesstal Mulda and the Boulassonbachs [up the valley into the Argonne]. By this, we knew that the enemy was moving against the North-South Road.
4. Is supported by battlefield archeology? Yes.
As in the craft of military intelligence, it easy to be seduced into a hasty conclusion based on the discovery of a surprise indicator or artifact that appears to support your estimate of the enemy situation or, in this case, the location of York’s fire fight. The fact of the matter is that a large battle occurred in the entire ravine as part of a flanking operation to relieve the nearby “Lost Battalion.” Subsequently there are thousands of military artifacts scattered throughout the area. To that end the location and type of military artifacts uncovered in the ravine must be consistent. The SYDE team conducted nearly forty days of intensive battlefield archeology to locate and verify York’s actions of 8 October 1918. With each passing day additional relevant battlefield artifacts were uncovered that told the York story.
In the meadow, we found evidence of a German battalion headquarters, large quantities of live German ammunition and emblems of both the (German) Prussian and Württemberg armies. These were from soldiers of the 120th Württemberg and Prussian 210th Regiments, whom the 17 Americans surprised and captured without a fight.
On the hill above the meadow, hundreds of shell casings and cartridges from a German machine gun and rifle positions were recovered, in addition to pieces of German equipment and belt clasps. These were from the soldiers of the 125th Württemberg Regiment who attempted to fight off the 17 Americans, but were eventually forced to surrender (after York eliminated the German soldiers in this machine gun position).
The breakthrough occurred in October 2006 after we found four shot (spent) US .45 caliber bullets. The four slugs were in a line over a 20-meter area, near the mouth of the only trench in the vicinity. The trench was the position from which German Lieutenant Endriss led the doomed bayonet attack against York and is the single most important enduring man-made terrain feature in the area. German buttons were also uncovered in the area, indicating that some of these slugs may have hit their mark. Just twenty meters below this, we uncovered the 21 Colt .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) shell casings fired by York.
Shortly after the discovery of the twenty-one .45 ACP cartridges, SYDE uncovered the location where York used his Enfield 30.06 rifle to eliminate the German machine gun. The battlefield records state that York “charged” the 125th machine gun. Just above where York’s .45 cartridges were recovered is a position that outflanks both the German machine gun and supporting infantry positions. It is likened as the base of a “V.” During this battle, the Germans used two sunken roads as trenches to engage the Americans below. From this position of the base of a “V,” York literally swept two German lines that silenced the machine gun and killed approximately 20 Germans.
The battlefield archeology recovered by SYDE describes the York story in total. The artifacts in the meadow show that the Germans there surrendered without resistance. In the midst of the various German discoveries, there were American 30.06 cartridges and shell casings found, showing that among the German prisoners, there were American soldiers. Further up the hill, and near the trench where we recovered the Colt ACP shell casings (from York), there were a considerable number of buttons and miscellaneous pieces of German equipment that are likely to have come off those York shot during the German bayonet attack. Finally, on the hill, the German machine gun and rifle positions contained numerous shell casings, some cartridges and buttons/equipment pieces. The Germans here fought and then surrendered. Finally, York’s rifle position was discovered; the spot from which he eliminated the 125th MG position.
5. Does it agree with written German and American testimony? Yes. (see report)
6. Does it agree with the battle progression/sequence as recorded by the 2nd Landwehr Division? Yes. Portions of two American and four German regiments fought here 7-9 October. It is imperative to understand who fought where/when, to avoid recovering artifacts from different units and different battles. The SYDE spot is in conformity with the activities of all German and American units fighting here in October 1918.
7. Is the location of the German machine guns positioned to observe both the actions of the American 2/328th Infantry trapped in the valley and the meadow where York attacked the 120th? Yes.
“While we were capturing the headquarters, the German machine gunners on the hill done seed us and let us have it.” Alvin York’s diary The German machine gun position uncovered by SYDE has line of sight to both the meadow and the valley where York’s battalion was trapped and was in a position to engage the Americans at max range to influence the battle in the valley (east) and can be used against York in the meadow (south).
8. Is it close to a trench (York's and Vollmer's testimony)?
“In the middle of the fight, a German officer and five men done jumped out of a trench and charged me with fixed bayonets.” Alvin York’s diary
This is one of the most important aspects of the written testimony. Both sides discuss a trench from which the bayonet charge was led against York. The only trenches that existed in this battle were border lines dug in the 1600s. There is ONLY one trench in the entire valley and meadow. This trench is where German Lieutenant Endriss led the doomed bayonet attack against York and is the most important enduring man-made feature in the area. Merely twenty meters below this, the twenty-one Colt .45 ACP casings fired by York were found.
Conclusion:
The archeological evidence and documentation compiled by SYDE constitute proof that the location of SGT York’s fire fight has been located. The discovery is in conformity with the American and German units, terrain analysis, IPB, eye-witness accounts, battlefield archeology, is logical from a military perspective and in conformity with period TTPs. Finally, the 5,000 plus artifacts collected by SYDE tells the entire York story as recoded in both the US and German archives. The key to the discovery was the German archives, a source that all other York researchers failed to use.
Oh my goodness, here we go again with the copy and pasting of the SYDE report. Has anyone really read this report?
No.1 WHERE IS ALL OF TE AMERICAN DOCUMENTATION USD BY THE SYDE? I have not seen any, but they say they have been to 5 US archives and used over 100 testimonies.
No.2 THE SYDE NEEDS TO EXPLAIN WHY ALL OF THE US TESTIMONY, GRAVES REGISTRATION BLANKS AND THE OFFICIAL INVESTIGATION INTO THIS INCIDENT ARE WRONG.
No.2 THE FRENCH AUTHORITIES AND THE CMH HAVE BEEN DUPED. Has anyone read the article by the French archaeologist Yves Desfosses in his new book: L'archaeologie de la Grande Guerre? Interesting that he only writes about Dr. Nolan's research and not the SYDE. The CMH is not responding to our inquiries into this.......that I find also curious....hmmm.
No.3 THE FRENCH IN CHATEL CHEHERY COULD CARE LESS WHERE THE TRAIL IS AS LONG AS IT BRINGS TOURIST EURO's TO THIER TOWN/REGION. You can clearly see the mayor of Chatel smiling in photos with each group. He, his town and the region of Chamgane-Ardennes love the attention they are getting over this little fuss.
LAST POINT: ANYONE WHO HAS REALLY READ THE SYDE REPORT CAN SEE THAT THERE IS NOT REAL ANY SUBSTANCE TO IT. Mostly a lot of confusing current Army doctrine and acronyms to cover up the fact there is nothing really there that explains where this action could have occurred. The endless references are links to nowhere, none of it is actually quoted or at least anything relevant.
AND WHAT ABOUT THE MEMBERS OF THE PATROL THAT WERE KILLED THAT DAY? You will see Mastriano and O'Keffe's name all over their report, monument and trail, but not one mention to the soldiers that lost their lives that day. To me it appears to be more about the Mastriano's, O'Keffe's, friends, family etc etc etc than it does about SGT York or the rest of the patrol.
BOTTOM LINE: THE SYDE IS CALCULATING THAT NO OME WILL ACTUALLY GO TO THE GERMAN ACHOVES AND SEE WHAT IS THERE. That is about to change and then I think that both the relevant US and German testimony should be presented and analyzed. Everyone needs to forget about the 21, 22 or 23 cartridge casings. There have been .45, 30/06 and German 7.92 cartridges found in numerous places in this valley. Oh, was there mention of a two German 77mm positions found on the SYDE hill? I did not think so. Right after the trail commemoration I found a big hole about 75 meters to the west of the SYDE "York Spot" full of German 77mm shell/fuse protectors. Funny that this is not mentioned by the SYDE, but it is mentioned in the Official History of the 82nd Division and the testimony of Major Tillman, York's battalion Commander.
Now do you see where this is going?
PS. I also agree with the previous comment that Mastriano is not a “monster”, but he has distorted history. Does the word “revisionist” sound familiar? You can find it in the “endorsement” section of the SYDE report in a letter to Mastriano from General Zabecki. I wonder how long the endorsing will go on before these folks actually read what they are signing off on?
There is a book called - "Everything I needed to learn I learned in Kindergarden." An illustration of an academic temper-tantrum.
So - would you like some cheese with your whine?
BREAK - BREAK - BREAK
Tom Nolan flatly REFUSED to meet with the other team - see the below often quoted email from him:
From: Tom Nolan
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:24:15 PM
RE: Resolving the location of the York Medal of Honor FINAL Auto forwarded by a Rule
...I am under no obligation to spend my time and money to meet with LTC Mastriano to discuss a matter that is not subject to negotiation. ...I feel that any
interpretive development at the site is best left to local and regional French organizations that are familiar with regional heritage tourism and economic development issues.
Tom Nolan
Director, Laboratory for Spatial Technology
Well - the French organizaitons and regional authorities made the decision (as Mr. Nolan stated) and it sounds like some are having trouble with accepting that... Mostly Bartlett's Tours who had their eye on making money off of Nolan et. all...
My friend a few blogs up is showing extreme ignorance - the German 77 Battery was deployed in this area 20 hours before the York action - READ your history. The brave fellows from 1/328/82 DIV fought them out of the area on 7 OCT with a 37mm on Hill 223. Tore the German gunners up.
Back to the books my fellow Mike K.
Good news report:
http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/10/21/13447-allies-conduct-ceremonies-to-honor-us-world-war-i-hero-sgt-alvin-york/
International Tribune and New York Times view of the debate:
New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/27/world/europe/27york.html?_r=1
International http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/27/news/york.php
The claim by Michael Birdwell and Tom Nolan that they found the spot where York earned the Medal of Honor is 100% wrong. Their declaration is not supported by battlefield archeology, German archival data, military doctrine or terrain analysis and most importantly, the Germans that York fought / captured were never there. There is NO possible way that Alvin York earned the Medal of Honor in the location where they claim. It is impossible. No research in the German Archives in Stuttgart, Freiburg, Potsdam, Ulm or BavariaThe biggest obstacle that Birdwell and Nolan face is that they did not spend a single day in the German archives, where the most important York related documents are. They are missing at least 100 essential documents. Because of this, they went into the Argonne with only half of the story and ended up in the wrong valley, finding artifacts from a different battle, a battle that York, and the Germans he fought, did not participate in. This claim is rife with numerous other problems and is not helped by the simple fact that the core of their team has no military experience. A trained military eye can see that their claim is not logical from a tactical point of view. The Germans that York captured were never thereThe site could not be the spot for the simple reason that the Germans York captured - were NEVER there. The empirical/hard evidence confirms this - that York fought and captured soldiers from the German 125th and 120th Württemberg Regiments and the 210th Prussian. There is only one spot in the entire Argonne Forest where these three units overlapped – and it is actually 600 meters away from the Birdwell/ Nolan claim. The location where Birdwell asserts as the York spot is the flank of the German 122nd Regiment. York captured NO 122nd soldiers and he never fought there. What Birdwell uncovered is a different fight altogether that transpired as the German right flank collapsed AS A RESULT of York's actions - several hours later. The picture does not add upIn January 1919, just three after York performed his heroic deed, the 82nd Infantry Division conducted a formal investigation into the York story in order to see if he deserved the Medal of Honor. As part of the investigation, photographs were taken. The spot selected by Birdwell / Nolan does not look like the 1919 photos at all. Further evidence that they are in the wrong place. Finding the right York spotSo, what about the York spot – where is it? A group of military officers, veterans, researchers, family members and battlefield archeologists, calling themselves The Sergeant York Discovery Expedition (SYDE), came together to solve this mystery. After years of painstaking research and nearly 40 days searching in the Argonne Forest near Châtel Chéhéry, France – the exact location where Alvin York fought off the determined attacks of the German Imperial Army was discovered with 100% certainty. The search began in the archives - over 700 hours researching every detail of the York story in the German and American archives. This proved crucial and put my group in the general area of where York earned the Medal of Honor. In fact – there is only one possible 100-meter area in the entire Argonne Forest where this event could have happened. It was in this area that we began nearly 1,000 man-hours of physical searching for evidence of York’s Medal of Honor. Each day of investigation uncovered a piece of the York story. The biggest find occurred on Saturday 21 October 2006, when nineteen of the twenty-one .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) cartridges fired by York were discovered. This was the final piece of the puzzle that was needed to designate the “York spot.” It was here that York fought off a German bayonet attack led by Lieutenant Fritz Endriss and forced the final surrender of the right flank of the 125th Württemberg Landwehr Regiment. The fact that York fired at least 21 Colt .45 ACPs is recorded in the History of the 82nd Division A.E.F., published in 1919, which states; “[York] fired… three complete clips from his automatic pistol.” These clips contained seven rounds each. The nineteen recovered .45 cartridges were spread over a ten-foot wide area and were between 2-4 inches deep in the Argonne earth. A few days later, we recovered the twentieth and twenty-first cartridges (#20 in front of the mayors of Châtel Chéhéry and Fléville). The bottom line, the search for the York spot is over. Although finding the .45 finds was the “piece de résistance,” we also unearthed thousands of other pieces of evidence that tell the York story. These include American 30.06 shell casings, 250 German machine gun shell casings, 100 live German rifle rounds - most in five round clips, several Württemberg and Prussian buttons, 25 German equipment buttons / loops, pieces of German belts / web-gear and evidence of a German battalion HQ building. The evidence is overwhelming. The battlefield archeology and the German and American first hand sources confirm that York did what he was awarded the Medal of Honor for. This will silence the revisionists and perpetuate the York legacy for another generation. In the meantime, we are working closely with the local French officials and the American Battlefield Monuments Commission to create a historic trail to ensure that what the great Christian Patriot York did is not forgotten or subjected to unwarranted second-guessing in the future. Finally - in order to pass the test - the York spot must have an affirmative on the following screening criteria - a NO to any of these means that the site is wrong. *Does it agree with historical facts about German units involved and unit defense locations? *Is it along the right flank of the German 125 and 120 Regiments? *Does the terrain match photographs taken in 1919? *Is it supported by battlefield archeology? *Is it close to the 1/120 regiment battlefront? *Is it logical from a tactical military perspective? *Does it agrees with written German and American testimony? *Is it located where the machine guns are in the fight - engaging Americans in the valley? *Is it on terrain that dramatically impacted the outcome of the battle (decisive terrain)? *Does it agree with the battle progression/sequence as recorded by the 2nd Landwehr Division? *Is it close to a trench (York's and Vollmer's testimony)? *Is it near two roads that head east - out of the Argonne? *Is it close to Vollmer's HQ? Sadly for the Birdwell / Nolan team – they have a resounding NO on most of the above. However, what we found is an unambiguous/resounding yes to all of these. I am 100% confidant of this as there is little room for error when you measure our hard evidence. This is a slam-dunk. In the end, the search for the York spot is not about Birdwell, or Mastriano. It is about the truth and honoring the legacy of Alvin York. The search for the historically accurate York spot ended in October. Questions The 1919 82nd Infantry Division History states that York fired three complete clips from his Colt .45 for a total of 21 cartridges. Why didn’t you find the 21 cartridges, but Mastriano did? Both the German eyewitnesses and the Germans mention a trench from which German Lieutenant Endriss led a bayonet attack against York. Where is this trench? What do you think about the trench near the location Mastriano found near the 21 Colt .45 cartridges? After York captured the 132 German soldiers, the German center/right flank collapsed, the 2nd Landwehr Division’s commander, General Franke, ordered the 122 Landwehr Regiment forward to cover the retreat of the 2nd and 3rd battalion. How do you explain that the spot you claim, as York’s was where the 122nd fought and York captured NO 122nd soldiers? In January 1919, the 82nd Infantry Division conducted an investigation of York’s actions. The photos that were taken of where York earned the Medal of Honor do not match your site. How do you explain this? How can you make a 100% claim of certainty when you have not visited the German archives in Potsdam, Stuttgart, Ulm, Munich or Freiburg when these are the only places where you can find vital York related documents (that has information on where the German units were)? There is a problem with your claim in that it is not at the spot where the Germans that York fought/captured (the 120th, 125th, and 210th Regiments). Why do you think you are correct when the battlefield you searched is the location of the 122nd German Regiment (a regiment from which York captured NO German soldiers)? The majority of the prisoners that York captured came from the 120th, 125th and 210th regiment. The only place where these all served together is 600 meters away on the hill called Humserberg the center hill) from your claimed spot. How do you explain this? May of the artifacts that you are displaying are the fat French light Chauchat machine gun (called the sho-sho by the Americans) bullets. None of the 16 Americans with York on 8 October 1918 did not have this weapon. Does your find actually disprove your supposition, especially as your York spot contained a lot of these bullets?
A view from the other side...
The claim by Michael Birdwell and Tom Nolan that they found the spot where York earned the Medal of Honor is 100% wrong. Their declaration is not supported by battlefield archeology, German archival data, military doctrine or terrain analysis and most importantly, the Germans that York fought / captured were never there. There is NO possible way that Alvin York earned the Medal of Honor in the location where they claim. It is impossible. No research in the German Archives in Stuttgart, Freiburg, Potsdam, Ulm or BavariaThe biggest obstacle that Birdwell and Nolan face is that they did not spend a single day in the German archives, where the most important York related documents are. They are missing at least 100 essential documents. Because of this, they went into the Argonne with only half of the story and ended up in the wrong valley, finding artifacts from a different battle, a battle that York, and the Germans he fought, did not participate in. This claim is rife with numerous other problems and is not helped by the simple fact that the core of their team has no military experience. A trained military eye can see that their claim is not logical from a tactical point of view. The Germans that York captured were never thereThe site could not be the spot for the simple reason that the Germans York captured - were NEVER there. The empirical/hard evidence confirms this - that York fought and captured soldiers from the German 125th and 120th Württemberg Regiments and the 210th Prussian. There is only one spot in the entire Argonne Forest where these three units overlapped – and it is actually 600 meters away from the Birdwell/ Nolan claim. The location where Birdwell asserts as the York spot is the flank of the German 122nd Regiment. York captured NO 122nd soldiers and he never fought there. What Birdwell uncovered is a different fight altogether that transpired as the German right flank collapsed AS A RESULT of York's actions - several hours later. The picture does not add upIn January 1919, just three after York performed his heroic deed, the 82nd Infantry Division conducted a formal investigation into the York story in order to see if he deserved the Medal of Honor. As part of the investigation, photographs were taken. The spot selected by Birdwell / Nolan does not look like the 1919 photos at all. Further evidence that they are in the wrong place. Finding the right York spotSo, what about the York spot – where is it? A group of military officers, veterans, researchers, family members and battlefield archeologists, calling themselves The Sergeant York Discovery Expedition (SYDE), came together to solve this mystery. After years of painstaking research and nearly 40 days searching in the Argonne Forest near Châtel Chéhéry, France – the exact location where Alvin York fought off the determined attacks of the German Imperial Army was discovered with 100% certainty. The search began in the archives - over 700 hours researching every detail of the York story in the German and American archives. This proved crucial and put my group in the general area of where York earned the Medal of Honor. In fact – there is only one possible 100-meter area in the entire Argonne Forest where this event could have happened. It was in this area that we began nearly 1,000 man-hours of physical searching for evidence of York’s Medal of Honor. Each day of investigation uncovered a piece of the York story. The biggest find occurred on Saturday 21 October 2006, when nineteen of the twenty-one .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) cartridges fired by York were discovered. This was the final piece of the puzzle that was needed to designate the “York spot.” It was here that York fought off a German bayonet attack led by Lieutenant Fritz Endriss and forced the final surrender of the right flank of the 125th Württemberg Landwehr Regiment. The fact that York fired at least 21 Colt .45 ACPs is recorded in the History of the 82nd Division A.E.F., published in 1919, which states; “[York] fired… three complete clips from his automatic pistol.” These clips contained seven rounds each. The nineteen recovered .45 cartridges were spread over a ten-foot wide area and were between 2-4 inches deep in the Argonne earth. A few days later, we recovered the twentieth and twenty-first cartridges (#20 in front of the mayors of Châtel Chéhéry and Fléville). The bottom line, the search for the York spot is over. Although finding the .45 finds was the “piece de résistance,” we also unearthed thousands of other pieces of evidence that tell the York story. These include American 30.06 shell casings, 250 German machine gun shell casings, 100 live German rifle rounds - most in five round clips, several Württemberg and Prussian buttons, 25 German equipment buttons / loops, pieces of German belts / web-gear and evidence of a German battalion HQ building. The evidence is overwhelming. The battlefield archeology and the German and American first hand sources confirm that York did what he was awarded the Medal of Honor for. This will silence the revisionists and perpetuate the York legacy for another generation. In the meantime, we are working closely with the local French officials and the American Battlefield Monuments Commission to create a historic trail to ensure that what the great Christian Patriot York did is not forgotten or subjected to unwarranted second-guessing in the future. Finally - in order to pass the test - the York spot must have an affirmative on the following screening criteria - a NO to any of these means that the site is wrong. *Does it agree with historical facts about German units involved and unit defense locations? *Is it along the right flank of the German 125 and 120 Regiments? *Does the terrain match photographs taken in 1919? *Is it supported by battlefield archeology? *Is it close to the 1/120 regiment battlefront? *Is it logical from a tactical military perspective? *Does it agrees with written German and American testimony? *Is it located where the machine guns are in the fight - engaging Americans in the valley? *Is it on terrain that dramatically impacted the outcome of the battle (decisive terrain)? *Does it agree with the battle progression/sequence as recorded by the 2nd Landwehr Division? *Is it close to a trench (York's and Vollmer's testimony)? *Is it near two roads that head east - out of the Argonne? *Is it close to Vollmer's HQ? Sadly for the Birdwell / Nolan team – they have a resounding NO on most of the above. However, what we found is an unambiguous/resounding yes to all of these. I am 100% confidant of this as there is little room for error when you measure our hard evidence. This is a slam-dunk. In the end, the search for the York spot is not about Birdwell, or Mastriano. It is about the truth and honoring the legacy of Alvin York. The search for the historically accurate York spot ended in October. Questions The 1919 82nd Infantry Division History states that York fired three complete clips from his Colt .45 for a total of 21 cartridges. Why didn’t you find the 21 cartridges, but Mastriano did? Both the German eyewitnesses and the Germans mention a trench from which German Lieutenant Endriss led a bayonet attack against York. Where is this trench? What do you think about the trench near the location Mastriano found near the 21 Colt .45 cartridges? After York captured the 132 German soldiers, the German center/right flank collapsed, the 2nd Landwehr Division’s commander, General Franke, ordered the 122 Landwehr Regiment forward to cover the retreat of the 2nd and 3rd battalion. How do you explain that the spot you claim, as York’s was where the 122nd fought and York captured NO 122nd soldiers? In January 1919, the 82nd Infantry Division conducted an investigation of York’s actions. The photos that were taken of where York earned the Medal of Honor do not match your site. How do you explain this? How can you make a 100% claim of certainty when you have not visited the German archives in Potsdam, Stuttgart, Ulm, Munich or Freiburg when these are the only places where you can find vital York related documents (that has information on where the German units were)? There is a problem with your claim in that it is not at the spot where the Germans that York fought/captured (the 120th, 125th, and 210th Regiments). Why do you think you are correct when the battlefield you searched is the location of the 122nd German Regiment (a regiment from which York captured NO German soldiers)? The majority of the prisoners that York captured came from the 120th, 125th and 210th regiment. The only place where these all served together is 600 meters away on the hill called Humserberg the center hill) from your claimed spot. How do you explain this? May of the artifacts that you are displaying are the fat French light Chauchat machine gun (called the sho-sho by the Americans) bullets. None of the 16 Americans with York on 8 October 1918 did not have this weapon. Does your find actually disprove your supposition, especially as your York spot contained a lot of these bullets?
A new andinteresting article on York
http://www.army.mil/-news/2008/10/21/13447-allies-conduct-ceremonies-to-honor-us-world-war-i-hero-sgt-alvin-york/
The alleged outrage seems a bit misplaced - how could so many be wrong? Even the New York Times, who always enjoys a conspiracy and not into upholding any US establishment, has signed on to the Mastriano find...
New York Times on SGT York debate:
Published: October 27, 2006
PARIS, Oct. 23 — An American military officer says that he has located with some certainty the spot on which the World War I hero Sgt. Alvin C. York carried out his famous exploit in the Argonne forest of northeastern France.
On Oct. 8, 1918, Sergeant York, then a corporal, crept behind enemy lines with 16 other soldiers to attack German machine gunners who were holding up an American advance. They came under fire, and Sergeant York was credited with overcoming the superior force by using sharpshooting skills he had honed during turkey shoots and squirrel hunts in the Tennessee woods.
Competing camps of scholars and military historians have long debated the exact site of this legendary stand, which ended with the capture of 132 German soldiers and was immortalized in a 1941 film starring Gary Cooper. Until now, no one had found what seemed to be such striking material proof that the exploit might have taken place as described.
“We nailed it,” said Lt. Col. Douglas Mastriano, an American military intelligence officer working for NATO, who has spent six years researching the Sergeant York story using American and German military archives.
The general area where the fight took place, near the village of Châtel-Chéhéry, is well known, but vague and conflicting battlefield accounts made it impossible to say exactly where it occurred.
Most people involved in the hunt have agreed, however, that Sergeant York was the only one who emptied a sidearm in the narrow valley that day, and students of the issue have said that finding a concentration of empty Colt .45 cartridges would be the best proof of where he stood.
On Oct. 14, Colonel Mastriano and Mr. O’Keefe found two .45 caliber rounds, one live and one that had been fired.
They returned the next weekend and found more evidence: 19 empty .45 cartridges scattered over a 10-foot-wide area at the base of a hill, along with German and American rifle rounds. Many of the German rounds had not been fired. They found more .45 slugs 20 yards away near the remains of a German trench together with hundreds of German rifle and machine gun cartridges, many of them live rounds, and bits of gun belts and debris consistent with soldiers surrendering.
The material fits closely with Sergeant York’s account, in which he described firing his rifle toward machine gunners on a hill before pulling out his Colt .45 to pick off seven German soldiers who charged him with fixed bayonets. Colonel Mastriano had the casings examined by a ballistics expert, who confirmed that they all had come from the same gun.
“I honestly never thought that we would recover the .45s and was stunned when we dug them up,” Colonel Mastriano said this week from his home in Heidelberg, Germany. “The find means that the search for the York spot is over.”
Article on 90th Anniversary Commemoration for York:
CHATEL-CHÉHÉRY, France -- More than 600 Soldiers, family members, American Boy Scouts, and history enthusiasts from around the world joined with residents of Chatel-Chéhéry village and the French military to salute one of the U.S. Army's best-known heroes Oct. 4.
Sgt. Alvin York, Company G, 328th Infantry Regiment, 82nd Infantry Division, was honored for his service during a memorial ceremony and official dedication of two monuments marking the site where he killed 25 German Imperial Army soldiers, captured 132 more and cleared 32 machine gun positions Oct. 8, 1918.
York was awarded the Medal of Honor and several other U.S., French and Italian decorations for his actions and valor.
York's unit, the 82nd Infantry, the "All American" Division as it was known then, was part of the American Expeditionary Force's I Corps during the Meuse-Argonne Offensive, one of five major battles that the Allies called the "Grand Offensive," which were fought from about Sept. 26 through Nov. 11, 1918. The Allies hoped that these simultaneous attacks across the Western Front would overwhelm the Germans and end the war in 1918.
Although York is best known for earning the Medal of Honor, he wanted to be remembered for what he did after he returned from war, York's grandson, retired Army Col. Gerald York said. York, who had only an elementary school-level education, leveraged his wartime fame to raise funds for a high school in his native Tennessee. He also administered the school for several years.
"He wanted to be remembered as a man of peace rather than a man of war, and for his belief in God," York said.
The Medal of Honor recipient's son, George Edward Buxton York, and granddaughter, Deborah York, also attended the village ceremony and helped unveil a plaque commemorating York's deeds.
"No free nation today is unaware of the performance he (York) turned in during World War I," said Brig. Gen. Jeffrey G. Smith, Jr., 5th Signal Command commanding general. "It is the story of Yankee ingenuity. A man whose ability to shoot sharply, his ability to lead naturally, his sense of judgment, his humility are the values we like to think are the products of our country, states and small towns. Above all, he was flesh and blood."
Smith said that although he recognized York and the Soldiers of World War I during the series of ceremonies, he was also praising and honoring the Soldiers he leads and serves with today.
"Sgt. York has given me an opportunity to thank them," Smith said after delivering his address in the Chatel-Chéhéry village square. "We're remembering the great sacrifice of Soldiers in earlier wars and it is through them that we thank the extraordinary heroism that our Soldiers are currently displaying."
In addition to the ceremonies honoring York, Smith and the 1st Infantry Division honor guard who, traveled to the Meuse-Argonne from Fort Riley, Kan., participated in six ceremonies in the battlefield region that weekend to commemorate the end of World War I, said LeAnne MacAllister, 5th Signal Command public affairs officer.
Twenty American, French and Canadian Soldiers, Airmen, Marines and Sailors from U.S. and NATO bases in Europe served as the ceremonial honor platoon for the ceremonies.
Cities and towns throughout France commemorated the 90th anniversary of the Meuse-Argonne Offensive and the United States Soldiers' actions during the war, said Lt. Col. Douglas Mastriano, chief of the NATO Allied Land Component Command Headquarters intelligence division and cofounder of the Sergeant York Discovery Expedition.
SYDE is recognized by the U.S. Army Center for Military History, several historical societies, French local and regional authorities and the French Military Mission to NATO for finding the exact site of York's actions, he said.
Mastriano used hundreds of official U.S. and German military documents to conduct an inch-by-inch search of the area. With the assistance of several friends and family members, the SYDE team recovered thousands of spent rounds, buttons, cartridge casings and other U.S. and German military artifacts to pinpoint the locations. These artifacts will soon be given to the Center of Military History for display in museums across the United States, he said.
For York, the day started off badly on 8 October 1918. His battalion was ordered to charge across a funnel-shaped valley into the Argonne Forest. If successful, they would outflank the Germans and force them out of the Argonne. When the Americans attacked that morning, the German 2nd Landwehr Division, from the German Kingdom of Württemberg, was ready. Once York's battalion was in the valley, the Germans opened fire from three sides, stopping the Americans in a death trap. As the battalion's casualties mounted, York and 16 other Americans were ordered to break through the German line to take out the machine guns that were holding up the American advance.
The 17 "doughboys" found a gap in the German line and surprised more than 80 German soldiers in a meadow. As the Americans organized their prisoners, a nearby German machine gun team on the hill above saw the Americans and, after yelling to the Germans to take cover, opened fire. Of the 17 Americans, York was the only noncommissioned officer left in action. He took charge of the remaining seven American Soldiers.
His Medal of Honor citation says at this point in the battle, "Cpl. York assumed command. Fearlessly leading seven men, he charged with great daring a machine gun nest which was pouring deadly and incessant fire upon his platoon. In this heroic feat, the machine gun nest was taken, together with four officers, 128 men and several guns."
York's actions broke the German line, saved his battalion from defeat and triggered the German retreat from the Argonne Forest, Mastriano said.
Following the Chatel-Chéhéry ceremony, about 400 onlookers, many hiking about a mile and a half on a trail blazed by Heidelberg-area Boy Scouts in July, attended the unveiling of memorials honoring York, his comrades, allied and German soldiers who died during the campaign.
While York was the focus of the memorial, the monument honors all Soldiers who fought for their countries and for what they believed in, said German army Lt. Col. Steff Basener, NATO Land Forces Command Headquarters.
"Many proud German regiments fought in the Argonne and basically stopped existing nearly 90 years ago," he said.
"Right here, dozens of German infantrymen fell in close combat when engaging York's brave squad," Basener said. "They sacrificed their lives for what they thought was a just cause. While nations fought here for differing causes, all Soldiers, regardless of their uniform fought here for but one cause: duty to country."
Today the U.S. and German armies stand together as allies and share the same battlefields against common enemies, he said.
While the 82nd Infantry Division of World War I is now known as the 82nd Airborne Division, York's sense of duty, valor and honor have not changed and are instilled into every one of the division's paratroopers, said Sgt. Maj. Jose Salas, the 82nd Airborne Division intelligence section sergeant major.
"I know that Sgt. Alvin York would have made a great paratrooper," he said. Fort Bragg memorialized York, one of the 82nd's five Medal of Honor recipients, when officials at the North Carolina post named its installation theater for him, and paratroopers learn of his exploits during their tours of duty there.
"You better believe that every paratrooper knows about Sgt. York and his accomplishments," Salas said.
York's leaders and most of his squad were killed, leaving the sergeant alone on the battlefield, he continued.
"He did not run. He did not seek cover," Salas said. "Instead, he did what every good American Soldier would do. He dropped to the prone position and began the assault."
York's actions and those of thousands of other allied Soldiers broke the German lines, ending the four-year occupation and leading to the end of the war, he said.
Although the dedication ceremonies are complete, there is still work to be done, Mastriano said. Boy Scouts and other volunteers will continue working on the historic trail and landscaping around the monuments.
The commemoration was the largest celebration in Chatel-Chéhéry since 1918, and the largest event in France in more than 10 years honoring Americans who served in World War I, he said.
"The overwhelming attendance -- one of the biggest (audiences) for a World War One commemoration -- states clearly that the debate over what York did Oct. 8, 1918 is over," Mastriano said. "We had people from across academia, the 82nd Airborne Division, 1st Infantry Division, three generations of the York family, the American Battle Monuments Commission, several NATO nations and many more accepting the dedication of the York trail and the location of the monuments as accurate. The fact that the French allowed us to build a trail and erect monuments on the spot says it all. Finally, we have proven that York did what he was awarded the Medal of Honor for. Both the U.S. and German archives agree and the archeological evidence that we recovered confirmed it. Those who sought to rewrite history have been relegated to a footnote in history."
While the dedication and the ceremonies symbolize York and his heroism, it is the man the events celebrated, Mastriano said.
"I hope that the participants came away with an impression of the type of hero York was and that his strong faith and personal relationship with God equipped him with the courage to accomplish what he did," he said. "He is a man of honor worthy of emulation."
WoW!! That is an impressive amount of material you posted there, but unfortunately nothing we have not seen before.
77mm guns…… Why did Major Tillman and the division history state that they captured a battery of four 77mm’s that day?
Oh wait, I get it. The battery was moved out before the York fight so when York took out the machine guns on the LEFT flank of the 2/328 attack they were set up at roughly the same position as where one of the 77’s was located. Now I see, WoW, I cannot believe I overlooked that.
I guess at the same time I overlooked that I overlooked the part about 2/328 main attack being directed against the Camprocher ridge to the northwest because that is the only plausible explanation of why your site could be the scene of the York fight which clearly occurred on the 2/328 left flank. I guess I also must have misread the report about the actual azimuth of the 2/328 attack as being 10 degrees north of west (280 degrees) and not against the Camprocher ridge as you suggest. By the way, your site is almost directly west of Hill 223.
Ok, I am getting the picture now. Let me know if I have a good grasp of what was going on now that you have so rightfully corrected the errors of my research.
The 2/328 attack was directed against the Camprocher Ridge. This makes sense because as you indicate all of the 77’s had been cleared off the ridge to the west of Hill 223 on the 7th of Oct so no need to cross the valley at the shortest point, but rather cross almost a kilometer of open field against the Camprocher Ridge. But, as 2/328 got about 500 meters (half way) across this open field they came under attack by machine guns on the left flank (where the 77’s used to be) and the patrol was sent around to knock them out. They must have been pretty tired by the time they negotiated all of the hills, ravine and so on to get to these machine guns. And then the patrol came across and captured all of these Germans who were lounging around eating breakfast in an open field (meadow) in direct line of sight of Hill 223 and the Americans attacking to the northwest against the Camprocher Ridge. After he captured these Germans the patrol was fired on by a machine gun located up the hill and to the southwest of where York was standing. York, not being able to see the Germans (because I could not see the “York Spot” from where these MG guns were said to be located), ran up this steep hill to where he had a better view of the gunners and shot all of them. On the way up the hill it is amazing that he was able to slip past Lt. Endriss and crew who were crouching down in a knee deep old boundary ditch. After the machine guns were knocked out he went back down and re-joined the survivors and prisoners and that is when Lt. Endriss jumped up out of the ditch led the doomed bayonet charge. York coolly stood up and emptied three plus magazines while standing in one spot and not moving – thus why it was so easy for your team to locate all of these cartridges in a very small area.
WoW! I cannot believe how wrong I had this story. Thanks for clearing it up for me, but I do have a few other questions. If you could do me the great favor of answering these couple questions I will drop this matter and close the book.
1. Why do the US accounts say that the 2/328 attack was directed against the hill west of Hill 223 on an azimuth of 10 degrees north of west (280 degrees) when it was really directed to the northwest against the Camprocher Ridge?
2. Why does the US testimony, accounts and history indicate that the machine guns York was after were located on the hill DIRECTLY southwest of Hill 223 and not the hill west of 223 where you found the actual “York Spot”.
3. Why do the US accounts of the 2/328 attack say that they attacked down the long slope of Hill 223 against the hill located to the west of 223 across a valley 500 yards wide and not against the Camprocher Ridge which was about a kilometer away across open fields?
4. Why do the US reports consistently report that York attacked the machine guns from the rear and that the Germans had to turn their guns around in order to engage the patrol when in reality York and the patrol were directly in front of the machine guns and in between the guns and Hill 223?
5. Why do the US reports indicate that the York action occurred on the western facing slope of the hill instead of correctly describing the action, as you reported, as occurring on the eastern face of the hill? (The US map reading skills at the time must have been as poor as mine for me to get this story so wrong).
6. What about the graves registration blanks? I plotted them myself and I do know that a discrepancy occurred with the ones filled out by the Chaplain, but that is understandable. It seems that the actual graves registration folks gave coordinates and general description of the burials at the time of disinterment that do not match your location for this fight. I also assume this is attributed to everyone’s including my own poor map reading abilities.
I would ask one more favor, PLEASE DO NOT copy and paste your report again!! I would really like to hear an honest answer from you on these simple and valid questions. I would really be interested in hearing something new other than the soldiers York captured were never there etc. I guess it is your failing to describe in some detail the actual movements of 2/328 Infantry on 8 October 1918 that cause me to ask these questions. These movements in relation to Hill 223 are critical to understanding where the York fight took place and if I have misunderstood the American reports and testimony then I am truly sorry and will forever rest my case if you can clear those up for me. I think it will be a different matter all together in correcting the material in the National Archives, but that should be an easy task if you have been able to pin point the “York Spot” to where it is currently located.
ok, I am confused now. From the way I understand this, if I were to go the German archives I would find the compelling evidence that would disprove all of the American historical documentation of this battle?
Yes/No ??
It does seem like bad research for Nolan to go to France with only half of the story. I can't imagine how his doctoral thesis was approved by relying mostly on US sources. The Germans are known, to a fault, for their meticulous record keeping. There must be something to this.
I agree - you don't know what you don't know...
Who ever heard of using a backhoe to do serious archeology? I saw a picture of this in Nolan's report -incredible. Poorly done. I too saw a huge lack of adequate first hand resources t odocument his claim. He used ONE source throughout the paper. Sloppy.
I guess they substituted haste instead of precision.
From the photos - some of the artifacts were damaged by using the large construction equipment - such as the first aid kit. Amateurish and shame on them.
German artillery operated in this area from 20 September 1914- 7 October 1918. There is evidence of this throughout the area. Adjacent to the Nolan spot is a lot of German 77mm remains in the creek. Did you not see it - or do you choose to ignore truth.
Here is a quite interesting piece on the debate:
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=62401&archive=true
Thousands and thousands of his own euros. Innumerable hours spent in dusty archives, all those trips into the woods. A lifetime of work crammed into the equivalent of 20 years of spare time.
It’s all worth it now for Lt. Col. Doug Mastriano.
In October, near the 90th anniversary of the exploits of Sgt. Alvin York, Medal of Honor recipient and reluctant soldier, Mastriano will see a monument placed at the spot in the Argonne forest where he believes the almost unbelievable happened: York killed 25 German soldiers and captured 132 others with only seven other surviving U.S. soldiers, a Springfield rifle and a .45-caliber pistol for help.
"It’s made out of lava stone. It should last at least 100 years," Mastriano said.
The monument is at the end of an interpretive walking trail that starts in the town of Châtel Chéhéry, which is a 3½ hour drive from Heidelberg. The trail ambles about 1½ miles through pastures and woods, with nine points to stop and read the signs in English, French and German.
If things work out, some 40 paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne Division will jump into a nearby farmer’s field, then march into town to add to the festivities surrounding the anniversary — actually on Oct. 8 but to be celebrated the Saturday before.
Mastriano, who became interested in York as a child when he watched the movie "Sergeant York," saw his interest deepen after he became an Army officer.
A devout Christian with a bachelor’s degree in history, Mastriano discussed York’s Christian pacifism in a military history class he taught. He was frustrated by the lack of specifics on the actual location of York’s actions, he said, where York killed so many to prevent their killing of his friends.
Two years ago, a group of academics — "The Sergeant York Project 2006," primarily from York’s home state of Tennessee — claimed they were 80 percent certain that they had found the spot. It wasn’t the spot Mastriano had found.
"It’s not even in the right valley," Mastriano said at the time.
He wanted to settle the matter with a meeting, showing the Tennessee group his massive amount of evidence based on American and German accounts, terrain analysis, Intelligence Preparation of the Battlefield, eyewitness accounts and more than 5,000 artifacts he found — German cartridges, buttons, whistles, watches, and the spent cartridges from either York’s weapons, or those just like them.
"Everything was where it should have been," Mastriano said.
The Tennessee group declined. "They said, not no, but ‘Hell, no,’ ’’ said Mastriano, who works at NATO headquarters in Heidelberg. "They’re not explaining anything to me or the French."
The regional French authorities were persuaded by Mastriano’s argument and evidence, as were others. Jeffrey Clarke, director of the U.S. Army Center of Military History in Washington, told Mastriano in a letter last year that the center would "sponsor" his work.
Maj. Gen. David Zabecki, retired military historian, is an enthusiastic supporter.
"Your pinpointing of the site…combined with your discovery at the scene of all the shell casings from the 21 rounds of .45-cal (automatic Colt pistol) that Sgt. York reportedly fired, all but kills the nagging historical revisionism that has attempted to discredit the York story in recent years," Zabecki wrote in a letter.
With all this accomplished, Mastriano said he’ll have more time to work on his book, tentatively titled "Lions of the Argonne."
One lion is, of course, York. The other is the German officer, Lt. Paul Vollmer, who helped make York’s feat possible.
Vollmer, after seeing York shoot so many German soldiers, including one of his friends, approached and offered to surrender his men who were on the hill, still firing.
"Vollmer blew a whistle and yelled an order …," and the German soldiers dropped their weapons and joined the other prisoners, Mastriano said.
"It ended the way it did because York and Vollmer wanted to save lives," he said.
Nicew article - the reporter got the rifle wrong - York had a M1917 Eddystone.
I walked both spots to settle the debate in my own mind.
There are grave issues with Nolan's area - it is too far from the valley - and the gunners there could not have been in the fight against York's unit.
The Nolan hill is like a cliff - and it seems impossible that York could have charged up it. I had trouble getting up it and no one was shooting at me.
The Mastriano trail and monument makes sense, from a soldier's point of view.
Mr. Anonymous sure does have a lot to say, but unfortunately none of it answers the important question of why ALL of the US accounts are wrong.
If the US account is only half of the story then where is the other half, the German half?
I re-read the SYDE report again last night and I cannot find a half, a quarter, not even a fraction of the ammmount of the US story that Nolan documents in his report. In other words, there is hardly any real story in the SYDE report except for the make believe world one they would like everyone to believe.
I think the question is where did the fight take place? Where Nolan says or Mastriano says?
Layout all of the German facts and maps so everyone can see what you found just as Nolan did in his dissertation and lets see what the whole story looks like.
Everyone is tired of reading the SYDE - Mastriano condensed version of what the German reports had to say.
The archaeological evidence and how it was collected is not really in the first place. We are not looking for one of Ceasars lost battles, but rather trying to locate a small area where York fought on a large battle field. 21 shell casings prove nothing on a battlefield that was full of soldiers shooting the same weapon. Stating that the only action that occured in your area was SGT York and crew is false.
Alluding that this site was "lost" in the archives is just plain nonsense. Everything is there and has now been published with the exeption of the relevant German material that the SYDE keeps secret and in it's place fills thier report full of stuff that has nothing to do with determining the location of the York fight.
Instead of answering a few important question about why all of the US reports are wrong the SYDE hides behind copying and pasting thier report over and over (please don't do that again....) and articles written by journalists who were duped into beliving this nonsense.
And comments about it taking a military eye to figure this out. Really??? You mean civilians cannot read and understand such concepts as "Hill directly southwest of Hill 223" and "machine gunners located on the western slope".
Well at least you do see the need to defend your work, that is a good sign and even better that you so skillfully avoid answering a couple questions presented earlier about the primary US resources.
If this is a world where we are supposed to believe everything Mastriano says and are not allowed to question anything Mastriano says and take his interpretations of what he reads in German archives to be the truth no matter how absurd then I would understand his objection to and avoidance of ligitimate questions raised by doubters. But, this is not that world.....sorry Doug.....
Please provide us a few answers about why all of the US accounts of the battle are so wrong? I will drop this issue if you can answer it with something other than "the soldiers York fought were never there".
After careful consideration of this debate, reading the diverse articles and reviewing both reports - I am with the Mastriano team. He has the documentation, credentials and not to mention the endorsements.
The earlier comment said it best - If the French thought there was any doubt - there would be no monument or trail today.
I can't see how Mastriano could have fooled the French civil authorities, the French military, the US Army, the Center of Military History, the mayor of Chatel and so many more.
I agree with the blogger who points out that there are a lot of people who agree with Mastriano.
Anyway - the personal attack convinces me that the York Project guys are desperate.
Say - wait a minute - I am Mr. Anonymous!!
Who is playing tonight? Philly is doing alright so far.
Anyone know why the Brits don't have baseball?
Did they ever thank us for saving them in 1918?
And 1945
Go Tampa Bay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is up with UK football?????
The debate only exists in the mind of those sponsoring it - Face it - millions of dead, thousands of casualties and arguing over a few hundred meters - beem me up Scotty!!!
Hmmmm.
This makes more sense to me than the angry people in this blog!
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought—
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.
And as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!
One, two! One, two! and through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.
"And hast thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!"
He chortled in his joy.
'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
For the record
Over 40 million casualties
20 million military and civilian deaths
60 million European soldiers were mobilized from 1914 to 1918
AND we will slander Mastriano becasue we did not get our way... I want my blankey - waaaaaaaaaa...
Would mikey like a lolli?
For the record
Over 40 million casualties
20 million military and civilian deaths
60 million European soldiers were mobilized from 1914 to 1918
AND we will slander Mastriano becasue we did not get our way... I want my blankey - waaaaaaaaaa...
Would mikey like a lolli?
If I understand the last series of incoherent posts correctly the “Official” SYDE response to the question about why are all of the US primary resources are irrelevant or incorrect is because they were sponsored by the mayor of Chatel, the CMH, and the French authorities.
Pretty impressive line up, but that still does not answer the questions. I can assume this means capitulation for the SYDE on these particular questions. It is quite clear they are unable to answer these questions and instead prefer to simply list their following of duped authorities.
I am sure that the SYDE will not specifically cite page numbers to any of their German references and detail what is found there as Nolan did in his paper. Instead they talk about football, lambaste the British for their performance as allies in both World Wars suggesting that we saved them and have now started reciting poetry.
Desperate measures for desperate times.
By the way….. I am NOT M. Kelly nor am I a member of their team.
I think instead of playing all of these blogger games a serious discussion should start about what is really in those German archives that is so reveling that it dismisses all of the American accounts of this battle and the York fight.
I will bet anything that all of your supporters were so bamboozled by your incoherent report that they signed off on it without really reading it and certainly made the grave error by not cross referencing any of your resources with the US resources that you claim to use - but did not. As for the French, I do love the France and it’s people, but the reality is that if Nolan or anyone else would have been prepared to prematurely throw a monument in they would have accepted their version as well. I will again bet anything that if I would have come there ready to put a monument in and had a report that said the York incident actually occurred in my backyard they would have accepted that too. The fact is you were first with something that looked like it would help tourism in the area and therefore they bought your version. Duped into it one might say. As for the CMH…. Man will they have some questions to answer when both sides of this story are told in an objective manner and show ALL of the relevant documentation.
I guess by stalling you hope that this will fizzle out. Sorry, but the great debate has only just started. This is only the warm up.
So, may I have my “blanky” and “whine” now?
Oh, I almost forgot one other note about the French support.
Why did Yves Desfosses not even mention the SYDE in his new book "L'archaeologie de la Grande Guerre"?
Why did he also say that Dr. Nolan's team are the only ones who actually recweived official permission to conduct metal detector searches at Chatel.
Also, if I read things right it was Mr. Desfosses, the head archaeologist in the Chamgane-Ardennes region who brought the backhoe into the Nolan site. I think the SYDE knows as much about real archaeology as they do about understanding the American testimony of this battle.
Quote from another archaeologist following this story: "The SYDE operation was well-intentioned, but amounted to a relic hunt, as most of the battle artifacts recovered were neither provenienced nor mapped, and constitute lost data."
And talking about destruction of the battlefield and heavy equipment..... has anyone seen how much area was totally destroyed by the SYDE to put in these mounments? Especially right above thier "York Spot". I guess erasing as much of the remaining artifacts wuold be a good idea to cover up this distortion. It is the equivilent of cutting the top of one of the Giza pyramids off to put a sign saying "This really is not an Egyptian pyramid, but rather the stone HQ used by Lt. Volmer on 8 October 1918."
Answers please gentelmen to the questions about why US testmony is irrelevant....not more garbage about who is a member of the "we wre duped by the SYDE" club.
I went to the dedication ceremony on 4 October and since have been following this story. Now it seems to have turned into a Kindergarten debate. I believed the Sergeant York Discovery Expedition after attending the ceremony and trail dedication, but now it looks like there is another side of the story that needs to be examined. It is kind of sad to think that not all the information was gathered to come up with the right conclusion.
I just found the link to Dr. Nolan's dissertation so I will be pouring over it tonight. At first glance it looks like Dr. Nolan has written his report in way that a report should be written. It is very professional and I would recommend it to anyone who wants to find out about the truth.
I also find it strange that the Anonymous writer, who I assume represents the Discovery Expedition, does not answer the questions about the A.E.F reports found in our archives. I would have thought that our reports would be much better since we are the ones who won this battle and war. When I first read Mr. Mastriano's report I assumed from what he said that all of our information had been lost. Now it looks like that is was never lost, only safely stored in our archives until now. It sure would have been nice if he would have had some more faith into our (US) record keeping. I will read the two reports and comment more on this.
One more thing - I really do believe that the truth matters and as far as I can tell the whole truth is not out....... There are too many open questions. And no, some endorsements to not prove anything. The French are only in it for the $$$$.
I know this first hand since I talked to some of them attending the ceremony. As as matter of fact, they are sort of puzzled why anyone in the US really cares about the exact location. As far as they are concerned it would have been enough to mark the spot in town........... since this is where the $$ come in. They even opened a new Cafe in town.
Not sure if you guys are in denial or just obsessive / compulsive.
A ridiculous blog!
Juvenile to say the least.
It is just too bad that Nolan refused to meet with both Mastriano and the French when they asked him to do so.
I really believe that any issue and blame rests upon him.
He missed the chance.
The claim that SYDE did not use the American archives is flat wrong. I looked at their very impressive report - and I stopped counting at 100 US documents. Plus - unlike the earlier claim - there are tones of footnotes.
The lead archivist at College Park worked closely with SYDE and gave them access to all records. Nothing was missing.
I would not so readily cast dispersions on the French when in actuality – the guy who created and is running this blog is Michael Kelly – who is the one person who hoped to cash in on SGT York.
The facts –
He is ALREADY making money off of his outrageously priced battlefield tours that included Sgt. York – the last one was $2,000 for a few days in the region
He is making money off of the books and pamphlets advertised on his website about the Nolan study.
So – this is a case of the kettle calling the pot black. In modern terms we call this transference – when someone guilty of a particular motive – blames others for it.
Michael Kelly threw in his lot with the wrong team – now he is making up a false story of a conspiracy to rile folks up. When the truth of the matter is he is not man enough to admit that he was in error.
No Honor, No Character
Whether Michael Kelly is making money off of this story or whether Dr. Nolan refused to meet with you and the French authorities or used his research for a doctoral dissertation is not what the subject of this discussion.
The subject is that a monument and trail have been put in based on an incorrect interpretation of the York fight documented in both the American and German records of the battle.
I have read the numerous pages of SYDE references and I can only find a small handful of American documents cited, but from reading the report itself very little if ant of what is found in these documents was used. For the numerous German documents cited one would think a copy of one of the so revealing German maps or quotes detailing this exact location would be found in the report, but unfortunately they are absent.
“Deployed along the southern edge of the Humser Hill in a meadow” does not really specify much and could be any location along that particular hill.
I ask the questions again:
1.) Why were the graves registration blanks not mentioned by the SYDE?
2.) Why was the map and testimony of Major Buxton and Captain Danforth not mentioned by the SYDE?
3.) Why does the SYDE completely avoid any questions about the fact the York fight occurred on the WESTERN slope of the hill located DIRECTLY southwest of Hill 223 as detailed in the official investigation of the York fight?
4.) Why were none of the affidavits signed in 1919 by the patrol survivors detailing the fight mentioned by the SYDE?
5.) Why did the SYDE fail to recognize that the 2/328 attack was directed along an azimuth of 280 degrees and not against the Champrocher Ridge as they allude to with their confusing array of maps.
6.) Why did the SYDE miss the parts of the American documentation that describes the German machine gun fire as coming from a hill located to the front, the Champrocher Ridge on the right and the hill directly southwest of Hill 223? The American documentation unanimously states that the patrol was sent in behind the machine gunners located on the western and northeastern slopes of this same hill.
7.) Why does the SYDE fail to recognize that the area where their meadow is located was in direct line of sight of the advancing 2/328 Infantry? Why would a large group of German soldiers be lounging around eating breakfast at this location with a major American attack on their position.
I could go on and on, but I think if these questions could be satisfactorily answered I will drop this debate.
I have the feeling that the SYDE will not even attempt to answer these questions because they cannot offer any plausible reason why they did not use any of the material I mentioned above.
The SYDE strategy is to continue to bamboozle a very naïve and gullible audience with lots of photos of hand shakes around monuments, long lists of who their friends are, impressive credentials and lots of current Army doctrine. I might as well mention the almost endless list of references that do not really tell the reader anything except that they looked at a lot of books, just did not use much of the material they found in their report.
And I should mention all of this was done calculating that no one will actually go to the German archives and challenge what is really there. That is about to change.
Nolan REFUSED to meet with Mastriano - see the below often quoted email from him:
From: Tom Nolan
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 7:24:15 PM
RE: Resolving the location of the York Medal of Honor
...I am under no obligation to spend my time and money to meet with LTC Mastriano to discuss a matter that is not subject to negotiation. ...I feel that any
interpretive development at the site is best left to local and regional French organizations that are familiar with regional heritage tourism and economic development issues.
Tom Nolan
Director, Laboratory for Spatial Technology
Well - the French made the decision and it sounds like some are having trouble with accepting that... Mostly Bartlett's Tours who had their eye on making money off of Nolan et. all...
Look, I am not Nolan, Kelly or Birdwell nor am I a member of their team so I am not sure what your last reply has to do with the questions I continue to ask and you refuse to answer.
I am not interested in any decision the French made with or without Nolan.
The bottom line is that I believe a big mistake was made concerning the premature placement of the monument and historic trail at the wrong spot as well as the distorted interpretation issued by you.
It is quite clear that the relevant American documentation was intentionally left out of your report and substituted with all of the things I mentioned in my last post in addition to a few quotations obviously extracted from the German archives.
So you see, this is not about you, Nolan and the French not coming to an agreement. This is about what appears to be a deliberate distortion of history. No conspiracy theory – only what looks like an opportunist who took a big chance by riding on his credentials, issuing the most absurd interpretation of this battle and specifically the York fight hoping that it would initially be accepted by his piers and supporters in the Army and later pressure French authorities into agreeing to the monument and historic trail. Once all of that was done it would be hard for anyone to dispute.
Does that sound familiar?
I thought you would have figured eventually someone like me would come along and look at the facts on both sides as you say you have. You should have known that someone would contest your findings because so far – I am not finding the documents that support your interpretation of these events.
If you can answer the questions I continuously ask then I will drop this issue. The fact that General Zabecki or any of your other supporters did not think this through and cross reference your report before signing off on it is another issue all together. I imagine once ALL of the documentation is presented for the public and professionals alike to see they can answer for themselves.
My email quoted in the blog is taken out of context and I would like to set the record straight. Below is the entire series of emails relating to meeting LTC Mastriano at Chatel-Chehery. I must also disagree with the statement that no member of the American patrol was armed with a Chauchat automatic rifle. Percy Beardsley stated in a newspaper interview that he fired several magazines from his Chauchat during the fight. He also stated in an affidavit that he was about 15 paces behind York, could see York firing his pistol and hitting several Germans, and fired his own pistol several times. It is unknown what type of pistol Beardsley carried, but two .45 cal. bullets recovered close to the concentration of .45 cal. cases exhibited the right hand twist characteristic of the 1917 Model Smith & Wesson revolver. Since York was armed with a .45 Auto these bullets are possibly from Beardsley’s weapon. From: Mastriano, Douglas
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:13 AM
To: 'Tom Nolan'
Cc: 'Kory OKeefe'; 'Yves Desfossés'
Subject: Resolving the location of the York Medal of Honor
Dear Mr. Nolan,
The leaders of the Sergeant York Discovery Expedition (SYDE) met with Mr.
Yves Desfossés (conservateur régional de l'archéologie) on Wednesday. We briefed him on our findings on where Alvin C. York earned the Medal of Honor. The back and forth debate (although interesting) between the two groups has put the Mayor in an awkward position and is frankly counter-productive. Emailing and phone calls to resolve this will not work. We all need to meet at Châtel Chéhéry to find a resolution. Can you meet us in early April, 2007 to walk the ground and go over the facts? Since this is over 100 days from now, and during low season, it provides ample opportunity for you to secure good rates to fly to France and to do this over Easter vacation. As I may be deployed again in support of the war on terror, or on a series of maneuvers/exercises - the summer and fall are not possible. We owe it to our French colleagues to meet as soon as possible to resolve the debate. Mr. Desfossés said that he will call you to coordinate a specific date in April. I look forward to hearing from you and wish you and your family a blessed Christmas.
Respectfully,
LTC Mastriano
From: Mastriano, Douglas [mailto:douglas.mastriano@lahd.nato.int]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 9:44 AM
To: Tom Nolan
Cc: Kory OKeefe; Yves Desfossés
Subject: RE: Resolving the location of the York Medal of Honor 2nd attempt
Tom, (2nd attempt for contact)
I have not heard back from you since my 22 December 2006 email and assume that you are on Christmas break. I am still planning to meet with you in the Argonne in April. I am deploying to Afghanistan soon and do not want this meeting to be ignored or forgotten. It is imperative that we meet. We should not put any pressure on the mayor to make a decision. We "Americans" need to resolve it. The best dates to meet in the Argonne are: 13-15 April and 27-29 April.
Respectfully,
LTC Mastriano
From: Tom Nolan [mailto:tnolan@mtsu.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 7:18 PM
To: Mastriano, Douglas
Cc: 'Kory OKeefe'; 'Yves Desfossés'; Michael Birdwell; Michael Kelly
Subject: RE: Resolving the location of the York Medal of Honor 2nd attempt
Doug: The dates you suggest for meeting are at the end of the spring semester and I need to meet my classes. Also, I have spent all I can afford on traveling at this time. The permit to conduct research from Yves Defosses, the French regional archaeologist, requires a report detailing the results of my study. I hope to have this done by the end of January. Perhaps you could give Yves the results of your work. Then he can evaluate the evidence and make a decision. Sorry it has been so difficult to get together.
Tom Nolan
From: Mastriano, Douglas [mailto:douglas.mastriano@lahd.nato.int]
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 5:21 AM
To: Tom Nolan
Cc: Kory OKeefe; Yves Desfossés; mairie.chatelchehery@wanadoo.fr
Subject: Resolving the location of the York Medal of Honor FINAL
Dear Tom,
Thank you for the email. I am sorry that April will not work for you. I understand that your field research in the Argonne is complete, but it is imperative that we meet. Mr. Desfossés and Mayor Destenay will not make the decision between our two groups. Mr. Desfossés specifically stated in December that he is not qualified to make this type of decision. Their position is good and I agree with it. This is an American story about an American soldier. Therefore - it would be best for you and me to meet to come to terms with our diverse findings. I checked your university schedule and I see that the spring semester ends on 7 May. Can you meet the week after your spring semester ends? Can you come 11-13 May? This is after school and before high season so you can still fly here for reasonable rates.
Respectfully,
LTC Mastriano
From: Tom Nolan [tnolan@mtsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 12:24 PM
To: 'Mastriano, Douglas'
Cc: 'Kory OKeefe'; 'Yves Desfossés'; 'mairie.chatelchehery@wanadoo.fr';
Michael Birdwell (birdie@tntech.edu); Michael Kelly
(michael.kelly1915@ntlworld.com); davidecurrey@earthlink.net; Fred
Castier
Subject: RE: Resolving the location of the York Medal of Honor FINAL
Doug: I don’t think you understand the purpose of my research. My goal was to use geographic techniques to analyze documentary and physical evidence of the York fight. The field work was done with the permission and under the supervision of the Champagne-Ardenne Regional Archaeological Service. I am obligated by the conditions of the permit to submit to them a report of my research and findings. The report will contain primary source material, research methodology and results. I am confident the results will bear scientific scrutiny and I am sure Yves will be glad to share them with you. I am under no obligation to spend my time and money to meet with you to discuss a matter that is not subject to negotiation. If you have conclusions that differ from mine it is your responsibility to adequately document and present them to the same organization. I feel that any interpretive development at the site is best left to local and regional French organizations that are familiar with regional heritage tourism and economic development issues.
Tom Nolan
Director, Laboratory for Spatial Technology
Department of Geosciences
Middle Tennessee State University
What.. you just lost ALL credibility - the whole reason for this blog is bogus!
Center of Military History printed neither report???
Why are we still having this conversation!
We are still having this conversation because there is a monument and historic trail located at the wrong place and all based on the SYDE's total distortion of the actual events of 8 October 1918.
Is that a good enough reason chief?
Despite the histrionics involved on Dr. Nolan's part, (I can understand the frustration, having encountered it myself on Bataan Peninsula) I feel that several key points exist which disprove the Nolan Team findings.
(1). Graves Registration Blanks are notoriously inaccurate. The ability to provide accurate grid coordinates has basically come into it's own with GPS. One has to "pull the original WWI manual" and read what and how Map/Compass readers were taught during and immediately after the Great War. A solution to, and confirmation of the Graves Registration Blanks issue is to revisit those coordinates and excavate. Find one conclusive piece of evidence of human remains, clothing, military accoutrements, etc. If one site could reveal such evidence, the Graves reistration Blanks issue would have merit. No body is ever fully recovered. Something...always remans in the grave.
(2). German military records were/ are meticulous. They can retrieve documents pertaining to the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, with units and geographic locations, to say nothing of the specific names and photos of those unfortunate humans exterminated as a result of "The Final Solution" during World War II. If one were to factor their value as a source, I would conservatively weigh them at 30% to 40%. There is no plausible reason for a scholar to discount them.
(3). American Military(Battlefield) Historians did not accompany the troops into battle in the Great War. They did not "witness" all or even a minute portion of the battlefield events surrounding them. Information deemed "historical" was gleaned from After Action Reports, spot interviews with participants, or enemy prisoners of war (who will tell you what you wish to hear, in order to survive). The German Army of the Great War had a tremendously detailed system of documentation, made all the more complicated by America's entry on the side of the Allies in 1917. The Germans documented facts- the Americans interpreted them. It's a simple truth... a hard pill for the victors to swallow.
(4). The .45 cal ACP casings in the extant trenchline are a compelling argument. The number found is too coincidental with the number of rounds (then) CPL York states he fired (4 magazines).
(5). Battlefield Archeology must always factor in Terrain analysis. Maps, both historical and current, will always reveal similarities and differences in key terrain. A ridge, gully, swale, or hogback changes over time, but always remains "FIXED" as a terrain feature. In contrast, human memory has a tendency to rapidly fade, particularly when focused on combat-related issues. Hills become higher, valleys more deep, bodies of water wider and deeper, when an individual is under hostile fire.
(6). LTC Mastriano's artifacts are indicative of a second series of defensive fortifications-not the front line trench system. They indicate a Command Post/Mess/Rear Assemby Area for Reserves. This is consistent with CPL York's 1918 account. Dr. Nolan's site is void of these indicators. I place little weight to Dr. Nolan's discovery of a Regimental Crest/Disk as a decisive factor in determining the correct location. It simply does not merit serious consideration.
(7). LTC Mastriano is under no mandate to prove or disprove past official military histories. I am sure that both his team, as well as Dr.Nolan's, independently selected what they felt was relevant to their research, and pursued those leads which merited consideration. Official histories are routinely infected with errors.
Good researchers uncover them. (8). The French machine gun and its associated shell casings merit little weight in this debate. The French were over that ground long before America entered the war. If CPL York was provided with covering fire, he would have mentioned it. His character was such that he could not/would not take sole credit. Post Armistice, he toured camps preaching how God helped him, to Doughboys awaiting ship transport home. If one member of any of the American Squads provided covering fire with an automatic weapon, York would have mentioned it, and cited that individual as being instrumental in his success.
(9). The American survivors reports of this action are sketchy at best. I read several of them (copies) years ago when vsiting Mrs. Gracie York in Pall Mall, Tn in 1980. CPL York's post action report is simple, flowing, only moderately detailed, yet presents a clear, accurate picture of what happened. His is the only one to do so. He was the only actual combatant of the engagement to walk the battlefield and provide a "tour" of sorts in 1919.
(10). LTC Mastriano effectively applied current military doctrine and training criterea to a past event. Although I have no military experience, I was able to clearly understand his approach and technique. I believe he correctly "templated" the correct location with intense research and a convincing and successful argument.
(11). There is a serious element of doubt/ wisps of a conflict of interest, when one reads of Dr. Nolan's associates involved with sanctioned "Battlefield Tours".I pray this is not the case. If true, this is a terrible stain on Dr. Nolan's efforts.
(12). In conclusion, I propose a cross-exchange of information between both research groups at some future point in time, followed by a definitive "walk" of both battlefields. Reasonable people will yield to facts when presented in this manner. The CMH is under no obligation to initiate this. Both Dr. Nolan and LTC Mastriano should look to do so when both can jointly agree on a date in the future.
I would love to view both parties documentation "en toto".
Good evening to all!
Ernst
My dear Dr. Gebauer, I see that you too are suffering from the same ailment as several others in this discussion. It is called ignorance and lack of ability to comprehend what you read.
I can tell by your writing that you too have been bamboozled by the SYDE and I am sure you have never read the 82nd Division History. Did they pay you to write this stuff?
Just to keep this short I summarize the US account. The patrol was sent out to take out machine guns on the hill located DIRECTLY southwest of Hill 223. The action occurred on the western slope of this same hill.
If this is not true then where is the actual documentation that supports anything the SYDE says?
I am going to the German archives soon and see if I can find this allusive documentation that the SYDE keeps so secret. The US documentation is in Dr. Nolan’s dissertation which I am sure you also did not read.
Now that I have had more time to analyze the doctor’s argument in support of LTC Mastriano and the SYDE I would like to share my thoughts on what he has to say. I numbered my reply to his arguments in the same order he presents them.
(1.) The point I was trying to make about the graves registration blanks is that they indicate the burials were located in the ravine southwest of Hill 223 – NOT on the eastern slope of the hill that just happened to be the center of the main 2/328 attack and where our SYDE friends insist the York fight took place.
(2.) If you find the German ability to track unit locations during the Franco-Prussian War and their documentation of the “Final Solution” grounds to refute Dr. Nolan’s findings then you are indeed in the wrong business and I am glad you are not my doctor.
(3.) The doctors argument #3 is a “hard pill to swallow” in his own words. He is referring to the excellent record keeping of the German troops involved in this fight. From what I have read the Germans were not sure what was going on and were conducting a strategic repositioning of their forces…… in other words ….. a retreat.
(4.) Oh, the .45 cartridge casings….. how many were really found? I count 19 in one photo and 22 in the other. Why has the magazine count changed from 3 to 4 now? Another question: how many .45 cartridge casings did Dr. Nolan find? Read his report and find out. Also how many other .45 casings were found elsewhere on this battlefield? I’ll bet a lot more. The .45 casing argument is a typical SYDE smoke screen that covers thier distortion.
(5.) The good doctor says that mans memory of events and memory of terrain changes as a result of being in combat. In this case there must have been a volcanic eruption to move hills across the battlefield to the position they are in today. Keep in mind the investigation of these events took place several months after the battle, not many years like the German investigation. York also states that he returned to the ravine the day after the fight before returning to his unit so I doubt that he forgot where it took place. If it occurred where the SYDE says it did I am sure York would have remembered and commented about his sore feet having to walk up and down several additional ridges. Oh, that’s right, the battlefield terrain shifted over time…..
(6.) The doctor does not find the G Company 328th Infantry collar disk significant. Why was it found outside of the 82nd Division sector? What was at least one member of G Company doing way over there? How many items did the SYDE find Marked to York’s company? Not conclusive…… I guess the doctor will also spend hours looking for the date on a coin minted in the year 100 BC .
The SYDE artifacts. I really would like to see all of these, but my guess is that they are the same type artifacts you will find anywhere in the Argonne. I am especially fond of the SYDE Volmer HQ building. When I walked the site several months ago one can clearly see lot of broken brick and what looks like a place that locals used as a dump. I do not think the SYDE was very skilled in artifact interpretation because a lot of the “junk” they found looks like non military and non WW I junk. I believe York himself said the Germans were gathered around a “shack” not a concrete structure as the SYDE claims.
(7.) I am not sure I understand what the doctor is trying to say about Mastriano not being under a mandate to prove anything. The way I see it Mastriano took the article written by Taylor Beattie and put it on steroids. All he is doing is copying Beattie’s work. He simply continued to look for .45 casings and once he found some he distorted the story so it fit where here he found artifacts. Take a look at where the 30-06 cartridges were found and how York ran up the hill so he could shoot down into the machine gun position, he then runs back down the hill right past Lt. Endriss crouching down in the knee deep drainage ditch re-joins his patrol and then shoots the Endriss led bayonet charge. Are you sure that you are not reading a J.R. Tolkien story or are we talking about the SGT York fight as described in the official investigation of the event by the 82nd Division?
(8.) All I can say about the French machine gun cartridge argument is ask the SYDE how many 8mm cartridges did they find? I bet they found them too. Also check the headstamps on the cartridges. I will also bet that they are dated 1917 and 1918 which means they were used by the Americans in the Chauchat automatic rifle and not during the earlier action by the French which took place much farther to the south.
(9.) Ok, once again we are reading survivor statements and not the official history of the 82nd Division. Read that and then we can talk.
(10.) This is another classic SYDE smoke screen meant to distract their easily duped followers. Military doctrine has no place in the search for the location of the York fight. Bottom line, the 2/328 attack was held up by MG fire coming from the right on the Champrocher Ridge, from the center (the SYDE hill) and from the hill on the left – the one located directly southwest of Hill 223. It was the machine guns on the left that the patrol was sent out to silence. The patrol went back under the cover of the brush on Hill 223 crossed the valley at the narrowest point and went over the hill down into the ravine. The patrol then followed the machine gun fire in order to attack them from the rear. The action with these machine guns occurred on the western facing slope. It does not take a military scholar to read that and look at a map and figure out where this event took place. Either way, the SYDE site is actually the center hill that was being attacked by the main effort of 2/328 Infantry.
(11.) Conflict of interest! What!!?? This is not about profit; it is about finding the truth, but since you brought it up let’s talk about it. Part of the SYDE bamboozling process is to introduce an excessive amount of religion, boy scouts and other things that have nothing to do with the search for the location of this action. This has been calculated into the distortion so that it will appear that whoever questions the SYDE questions religion, the boy scouts and so on.
Having said that maybe you should ask LTC Mastriano how many taxpayer paid vacations has he taken to the Argonne to guide groups of Army officer, school kids etc on a tour of his site and other WW I sites. Look on the internet; I have found dozens of references to his “staff rides”. Ask LTC Matriano about the book he is writing, “Lions of the Argonne”. Is he going to give free copies of it away or donate all of the profits to a non profit organization? Or is there really anything wrong with selling a book one writes. I do not think Michael Kelly’s book has made him rich, in fact he might tell you it has cost him more money than he has made from it. What is so wrong with selling books and offering battlefield tours. I will also bet that Dr. Nolan and Michael Kelly have, as I have, spent many thousands of dollars out of their own pockets in order to find the true location of the York fight and did so with no intention of seeing a return on their expenditures.
(12.) Another classic SYDE ploy. “Hey little mouse, come into the lions den and let’s discuss what’s for dinner.” The SYDE offer for Dr. Nolan to meet with him and the French in Chatel Chehery is the equivalent of the North Korean and the Iranian offers for the US to come to their countries and discuss nuclear proliferation.
Re-read the whole email exchange between LTC Mastriano and Dr. Nolan. It appears to me that Dr. Nolan was counting on the French archaeologist and local government to come to a decision concerning the placement of monuments and trails based on the merits of his report taking into consideration their own cultural and economic development issues. It sounds to me that LTC Mastriano rolled into town and threw his weight and position around to turn this into an “American issue”. It also looks like he pressured the French into accepting his version of the story. I am sure this was not too difficult since the French do love all of the extra attention and slightly increased tourism to this very small village. It is funny to see the pictures of Mayor Destenay standing next to Mastriano with an ear to ear grin and later next to Dr. Nolan’s group with the same ear to ear grin. I do believe that Mastriano even states in his email that the French archaeologist said he was not qualified to make a descision on this issue. It looks like LTC Mastriano made the decision himself. It also looks like Dr. Nolan was the only group that was authorized and supported by the regional French archaeologist. The SYDE conducted what most call a “relic hunt”.
So you see, this argument presented by the good doctor is no more than more of the same old SYDE double talk and more meaningless excuses of why they cannot answer the questions I challenged them with earlier in this discussion. Answer the questions with real facts and not opinions.
Well I am back. After reading Dr. Nolan's dissertation (quite an undertaking since it is very long and detailed) and poking in the 82nd Infantry history (both available for download online if anyone is interested) I am more confused than ever.
It seems to me like the Americans did keep pretty good records of the events that took place and unfortunately the statements in the 82nd history do not match up with the way LTC Mastriano interprets the events. There is a lot of data available with maps etc. and even I am able to figure the situation out!
This blogg makes for for some very interesting reading. Unfortunately none of the questions that need to be answered are. I would really like to believe the Mastriano story; I do not want to think that I spent all that money in vain in order to go see the dedication of the memorial etc. if it is located in the wrong spot. So please LTC Mastriano - put my mind at ease by answering the questions "anonymous" posted. If you conducted all the research, you should be able to dispute these arguments and prove them wrong.
bam- boo - zle
–verb (used with object)
1. to deceive or get the better of (someone) by trickery, flattery, or the like; humbug; hoodwink (often fol. by into): They bamboozled us into joining the club.
Chatel Chehery, France, 4 October 2008
The SYDE had their day in the sun......... as the day fades into night.
A FRAUD!!!
The infamous and much vaunted G/328 collar disk was bought on ebay and staged found in France!!!
Where is the military expertise and training with the project boys?
I have heard that LTC Mastriano is a man with deep religious convictions and it is not only very surprising but equally disturbing that he and/or his supporters have stooped so low to accuse Dr. Nolan of buying the G Company 328th Infantry collar disk on ebay and staging the find.
They must be really desperate and running scared to come up with this line. Instead of answering a few questions that they obviously cannot answer, they are now accusing the others of manipulating the artifacts in a last ditch effort to save their sinking ship.
Another thing, do you mean to tell me that it takes military expertise and training to read “hill directly southwest of Hill 223” …. “machine gunners located on the western slope” look at a map, find this hill, go out and conduct an authorized and supervised metal detector search? So, only military experts are allowed to search for military artifacts?
From what I see the “military expertise” has landed one group (SYDE) in hot water. When the full story is told they will have some explaining to do to their followers, French authorities, CMH, General Zabecki and many more of how they got this so wrong.
As the SYDE prepares to be “relegated to a footnote in history” they are getting desperate. Like the wounded lion, they still have some fight left in them and are resorting to below the belt tactics to try and save themselves from this inevitable fate.
Once again, answer a few questions and we can drop this debate.
According to this Dr. Gebauer died in 1968, but at least he is a Great War veteran and served in Verdun.
Dr. Ernst Gebauer
Kommunalarzt
Ernst Gebauer wurde am 04. April 1873 als Sohn eines Pfarrers in Legde / Westprignitz geboren.
Sein Medizinstudium absolvierte er an der Universität Halle. 1900 kam er nach Wittenberge.
Hier nahm er ein Angebot des Magistrats wahr und trat 1902 die Stelle des städtischen Kommunalarztes an, fand ein breites Betätigungsfeld und erwarb sich in jahrzehntelanger Arbeit viel Achtung und Vertrauen.
Von 1912 bis 1914 übte Dr. Gebauer in Wittenberge die Funktion des Stadtverordneten-Vorstehers aus.
Während des Ersten Weltkriegs diente er als Stabsarzt in einem Neuruppiner Infanterie-Regiment.
1917 geriet der Arzt vor Verdun in französische Kriegsgefangenschaft.
Ab 1921 konnte er wieder praktizieren und genoß als Hausarzt das Vertrauen mehrerer Wittenberger Familiengenerationen.
Dr. Gebauer praktizierte bis ins hohe Alter und verstarb am 08. Januar 1968.
Since our good friend and SYDE member Dr. Gebauer has decided to move to another blog site I would like to share my reply to him and get this discussion back on track with the following:
Very well done Dr. Gebauer! You have made an excellent attempt at diverting attention away from the questions I continue to ask. So, let’s get back to the subject at hand.
But first, you admit you made a mistake about the magazine count …… it would seem to me that it is you who have not done your homework. In the event that you have done your homework can you explain why you and your SYDE friends refuse to mention, discuss, use as a part of your report or answer questions about the following:
1.) Attack of 2nd Battalion, 328th Infantry, October 8, 1918 as described on page 58 – 62 in the “Official History of the 82nd Division”, specifically the part detailing the York fight starting on page 59.
2.) The attack of the 328th Infantry on Chatel Chehery and the Decauville railroad as described on page 39 – 47 in the “History of the Tree Hundred and Twenty-eighth Regiment of Infantry”?
3.) The map depicting the attack on Chatel Chehery and Decauville railroad located just after page 74 in “History of the Tree Hundred and Twenty-eighth Regiment of Infantry”?
4.) Contents of the letter from Major Buxton to Captain Swindler dated July 23rd, 1929 describing the 2/328 attack west of Chatel Chehery and specifically the York fight. (Entry 310C “Thomas File”, Record Group 165, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD.)
5.) The map that accompanied the letter mentioned above with annotations by Major Buxton and Captain Danforth depicting route the patrol took and where the York fight occurred. (Entry 310C “Thomas File”, Record Group 165, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD.)
6.) The internment and disinterment records for Corporal Savage and Privates Dymowski, Swanson, Waering, Weiler and Wine. (Record Group 92, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD.)
7.) A 1918 exchange between Major Buxton and Major Tillman describing 2/328 attack west of Chatel Chehery and position of the German machine guns and 77mm battery. (82nd Division Field Orders and Memos, History of Operations. 82nd Airborne Division War Memorial and Museum Archives. Fort Bragg, North Carolina.)
8.) Aerial photograph 1370 taken on 1-10-18 by Squadron 12. (Entry 538, Record Group 120, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD)
9.) Signal Corps photograph 49190 of the graves of four soldiers from the patrol and photograph number 49192 grave of Corporal Savage. (111-P, Box 61, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD) – These kind of sink your photographic comparison argument huh? We already know about photo number 49189 and 49191 and none of these, especially the ones of the graves, look like the SYDE site.
10.) Account of Captain Danforth found on page 237 – 240 “Sergeant York, His Own Life Story and War Diary”
11.) Sworn disposition given by Sergeant Parsons found on page 240 – 242 “Sergeant York, His Own Life Story and War Diary”
12.) Sergeant Early’s own account found on page 242 – 244 “Sergeant York, His Own Life Story and War Diary”
13.) Official affidavit of Private Beardsley found on page 244 – 247 “Sergeant York, His Own Life Story and War Diary”
14.) The 82nd Division account of the York fight taken shortly after the fight at the division headquarters found on page 260 – 267 “Sergeant York, His Own Life Story and War Diary”
15.) Last, but not least the words of Corporal York himself found in Skeyhill’s book and numerous other sources. I think this answers the question about General Lindsey and I quote Sergeant York: “After the armistice Brigadier General Lindsey and some other generals and colonels takened me back to the Argonne Forest and went back up to the scene of the fight with me. They measured and examined the ground and asked me a whole heap of questions. Brigadier General Lindsey asked me to take him out like I did the captured German major. And I did.”
So, it looks look like the American did keep pretty good records. The only German reference that SPECIFICALLY mentions the York fight is “Testimony of German Officers and Men Anent Sergeant York” translated by the Army War College. (National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD)
My problem with the SYDE report is that it fails to show any of their documentation. The best reference they actually detail is the one about the regimental boundaries being located on the southern edge of the Humserberg. That does not tell us much,
So, here are the references, please read them and explain why all of these people, including York himself, lied and made up this story.
Oh, but you are going to be away until spring….how convenient.
PS. The other blog is:
http://tennesseeguy.wordpress.com/2006/11/28/sgt-york-casings-to-be-given-to-museums/
I see that the project gentlemen are basing everything on the 328 collar disk.
The disk was planted by them! There is no way that it can be in such perfect condition - specifically as they claim it was in a marshy area (dr. nolan's report). It cleaned up nicely at the site (everything washed off when they found it - look at the picture!)
Furthermore - the industrial stamp colloration is also present - this would have worn off in only a few years in the ground.
My records show that ebay did sell a G copy 328th collar disk exactly like the one this team "found" in mid 2006. Coincidence?
No Coincidence here, just another desperate claim by a desperate Mr. Mastriano and SYDE crew with hopes of diverting attention away from questions they refuse to answer concerning their lack of relevant documentation in their report.
There is no doubt that their motivation is self serving and was never intended to reveal anything remotely close to the truth in regards to the location of the fight and how it transpired at their “York Spot”.
For some reason anyone who questions their finding is automatically accused of launching a personal attack as can be seen here in the “Tennessee Guy’s Blog”:
http://tennesseeguy.wordpress.com/2006/11/28/sgt-york-casings-to-be-given-to-museums/#comment-8095
I will add my reply to their last run of accusations here:
Personal attack, I think not. Let me quote SYDE member Kory O’Keefe in the Spring 2007 issue of “BIOLA” magazine:
“It was God who made it possible for Alvin York to do what he did 88 years ago, and it is God who made it possible to find the evidence needed to prove York’s testimony is accurate and true.”
You can find the article here on pages 8 and 9, it is called “Alumnus Locates ‘York Spot’ of World War I”.
http://www.biola.edu/news/biolamag/downloads/2007-spring.pdf
Your claim that the collar disk was planted and now saying that it is also a “copy” purchased on eBay is nothing more than your avoidance of the primary resource documents I have challenged you with on numerous occasions throughout this blog.
While checking the primary resources you actually use in your SYDE Report I was alarmed to find that you use only a handful to support your claim. They are:
• Somewhat “modified” version of SGT York’s Medal of Honor Citation.
• One quote from General Pershing.
• Several “heavily edited” quotes from SGT York’s Diary.
• ONLY FOUR quotes from the German Archives, all of which are poorly translated and distorted excerpts taken from “Das wuerttembergische Landwehr Infanterie Regiment Nr. 120 and Nr. 125 im Weltkrieg 1914 – 1918”.
None of these support anything you claim. I also find it amusing that your version of the route the patrol took has changed numerous times. There is the Boy Scout Meuse-Argonne Trail version, the two different versions that show up in your SYDE Report and the final, very different version that is depicted on the orientation board located in Chatel Chehery.
So, you see, there is nothing personal here, only an examination of what has been published by you or by those who support or report on your behalf.
If you want to discuss the “evidence” start with explaining why you did not even consider using the Buxton/Danforth – Swindler letters and accompanying maps. (Entry 310C “Thomas File”, Record Group 165, National Archives and Records Administration, College Park, MD.)
Maybe it’s time to call Dr. Gebauer back from his business trip.
You know, I just noticed that the Boy Scouts of America Transatlantic Council site for the SYDE's version of the Meuse Argonne Trail has been pulled or for what ever reason, does not exist anymore.
Very interesting, but good thing that I downloaded all of the maps and interpretive trail details months ago.
Personal attack..... I think not, it sounds more like "sui caedere" in respect to the SYDE historical interpretation.
Has anyone seen the last issue of the Dutch magazine "Wereld In Oorlog, Nr. 11, 2009" (The World at War, issue number 11, 2009)? There is a very interesting article about this very debate found starting on page 7.
Through a Dutch friend of mine I was able to understand the following key points from this article;
1.) From the author’s interviews with Dr. Clarke, the Director of the U.S. Army Center of Military History (CMH), Dr. Clarke stated that he issued the famed “SYDE - CMH endorsement letter” not as support for the findings of Mr. Mastriano’s, but rather to say that the CMH was a supporter of his research – not the results. This letter was written at the request of Mr. Mastriano who thought he could obtain French sponsorship with this letter for what he planned to do.
2.) French Sponsorship; well it looks like from this article that the French regional archaeologist for the Champagne-Ardennes Region did not issue a permit for or otherwise authorize Mr. Mastriano’s relic hunting activities and therefore it appears that Mr. Mastriano’s relic hunting could be considered an illegally activity flagrantly violating French cultural and archaeological law. I am sure the same applies for the French cultural artifacts, which were presumably illegally exported at US tax payer’s expense to the CMH aboard a US Air force C-17. I am sure there is a lot more to follow of this aspect of the story. Mainly concerning why the artifacts will be displayed in the Pentagon when in reality these “artifacts” were more than likely illegally excavated, illegally exported from France and worst of all, are artifacts that have nothing whatsoever to do with the specific engagement of SGT. York, the patrol or the German units involved that resulted in the capture of 132 German prisoners of war.
3.) The famed French Military letter of endorsement appears to be nothing more than an internal memo discussing the creation of the “York Trail” and has absolutely nothing to with endorsing anything Mr. Mastriano claims.
Also, from the way I read this article, a least one member of Mr. Mastriano’s team, who was assisting Mastriano in digging artifacts after his final report had been issued, disagrees with Mr. Mastriano’s methods and findings. I have a question; why did the SYDE continue to relic hunt for artifacts after their 100% certainty repot had been issued? I wonder; are all of the artifacts shown in the photos above really from the SYDE “York Spot”, or are they from anywhere in that region? I do not see any method of marking or identifying any of the individual artifacts shown in these photos as I would expect and have seen in other archaeological reports. Does that mean that there is no “real” provenance for these artifacts? Does that mean that they were found only where Mr. Matriano says they were found?
At any rate, I cannot wait to see how this turns out, but from the way this latest article reads, it looks like some of Mr. Mastriano’s core supporters are starting to run for cover or back step on previous “endorsements”.
I again encourage everyone to examine the documents I have so often mentioned in great detail and in previous entries in this blog that Mr. Mastriano and his followers refuse to acknowledge.
This debate is far from over, only warming up…… so to speak.
There has been another “discovery” that needs to be discussed here.
Please take a look at this article:
http://rss.ireport.com/docs/DOC-258231
Initially I thought this must be some kind of a joke, but after a little more searching I found the original army press release:
http://www.1ad.army.mil/Story/may09/german_soldier.htm
A short time later I received this email written by this man and here are a few excerpts:
“From: Douglas Mastriano
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 6:39 AM
Subject: Important SGT York discoveries from October 1918"
"Two amazing discoveries to support the York Spot:"
"We are pleased to announce the recovery of a significant discovery of artifacts related to where Sergeant York accomplished his amazing feat.
So what?"
"1. The discoveries confirm our conclusions as to where York fought on 8 OCT 1918
2. York did what he was awarded the Medal of Honor for (silencing the detractors)
3. One God-fearing man made the difference - an example of us today
4. This important piece of American History is preserved for the next generation”
"While working on the Sergeant York Historic Trail, we uncovered the personal effects and the complete identification tag of a German soldier involved in the fight against York’s battalion on 8 October 1918. The soldier of whom we speak is Gunner Wilhelm Härer."
"On 8 October 1918, Wilhelm Härer was assigned to German Lieutenant Paul Lipp’s portion of Humserberg. Lipp commanded the machine gun which Alvin York assaulted and destroyed. Lipp himself was captured by York. As a result of York’s actions, Wilhelm Härer’s gun crew fell back under heavy US pressure. As they withdrew, Wilhelm Härer fell in battle. He was declared missing in action."
"The discovery is the strongest undisputable piece evidence directly linking a specific soldier with the York spot. This is significant in that the detractors can explain away buttons, and collar disks – which hundreds of soldiers carried. However, the recovery of Wilhelm’s ID tag is harder to ignore and adds further confirmation of our work and conclusions as to where York earned the Medal of Honor. This discovery was followed by the recovery of two badly damaged US military tunics of soldiers from York’s BN – again, complimenting our earlier findings regarding the York spot.”
After reading the article and this email I was not only disturbed, but equally surprised and amused by what this man now claims. Here are my thoughts on this “discovery”:
Since when do Boy Scouts do archaeology? Especially on a World War One battlefield? It is documented that not only high explosive was used in the valley west of Chatel Chehery on this day, but Phosgene gas as well. Being that approximately 20% or more of first world war artillery shells did not explode I am not sure if this is appropriate “work” for Boy Scouts tromping around the woods with metal detectors and shovels.
Would the French regional director of archaeology issue a permit to Boy Scouts to conduct surface metal detector archaeology? I doubt it and I bet his remarks about this discovery will be VERY exciting. Does the Center of Military History and other supporters of this man know that not only were these artifacts illegally excavated and exported from France, but the archaeology was done by Boy Scouts? They can answer for themselves when the time comes.
Now to the disturbing part; if what this man is saying is true then they found the grave of a German soldier who is still listed as missing since October 1918. I can see that a small case of artifacts were “repatriated” to the town where this soldier came from, but no mention of his remains. Instead of doing the correct thing; which would be immediately cease all excavation as soon as a suspected burial is located, notifying the local mayor’s office, the Gendarmamarie and the regional archaeologists’ office the Boy Scouts continued to “loot” as many artifacts as they could find. The thought of Boy Scouts conducting serious archaeology paints a very comical and humorous picture in my mind, but one cannot overlook the very serious cultural, ethical and morale violations that have apparently occurred as a result of this “discovery”
In my opinion, if the truth were known, they probably only found the dog tag and the other items were found on the same hill so they simply grouped them together to make the story more “sensational”. But, we must give them the benefit of doubt since they presented a case of artifacts that seem to contain the dog tag, a gas mask, what looks like a soldiers boot heel with the leather still on it, buttons and other artifacts. Again I would ask; where are the remains of this soldier? Even if they “thought” or “felt like” he might have been removed and transferred to a military cemetery after the war they are nevertheless obligated to turn the excavation work over to professional archaeologists. If even a finger bone had been found that would be enough to say this soldier has been “found”, but what apparently has happened is the artifacts were “looted” and this soldier still remains in a “missing” status. I do not think that the findings, opinions or conclusion of Boy Scout archaeology can be taken very seriously and they are not qualified for excavating a missing soldier’s presumed final or temporary resting place. But, without having the proper authorization to begin with it would be self incriminating to inform the same agencies that would have arrested them had the known what they were doing in the first place. Better to get out of France with the “loot” as quickly as possible and make the announcement on a local level, become a hero for a small German town and continue to dazzle an evidently very naïve Center of Military History.
Ok, so we have a dog tag from a soldier that belonged to the 125th Landwehr Infantry, what does that have to do with confirming the “York Spot”. This tag was found exactly where it should be, on the hill the 125th occupied during the battle.
This man says: “The discovery is the strongest undisputable piece evidence directly linking a specific soldier with the York spot.”
I thought they said earlier that the 21 pistol cartridges were the most undisputable evidence linking a specific soldier to the York Spot, and in this case SGT York himself, at least according to this man’s claims.
Again we see that this man says that the 125th Landwehr was on the Humserberg and York defeated the machine guns on the Humserberg. If you look at the 1918 German 1;25,000 map sheet or the official German report about the incident you will clearly see that the Humserberg is actually located just southwest of the town of Cornay an nowhere near this hill. In the German records there are only one or two accounts that mention this hill specifically and in both cases they refer to it by using the elevation reference “153”, the map grid square number the hill is located in “1429” or simply refer to it as the hill west of the “Schlossberg” (Hill 223). The Americans called this hill “Hill 167” for the elevation reference found on the 1918 French 1;20,000 map sheet. Strange that in the American documentation and Signal Corps photographs there are many references to Hill 167 and that it was taken by the main attack of 2nd Battalion, 328th Infantry and not the SGT Early/York patrol. All American accounts show that the “York fight” took place on the western facing slope of the hill located directly southwest of Hill 223, or “Hill 2” as the Germans called it and not where this man claims to have located the exact spot with “100% certainty”.
“100% certainty”, “conclusive, the search is over” and “undisputable piece of evidence”, these are terms not often used in the archeological, historical or scientific communities, yet they are found throughout this man’s writings and articles written on his behalf. What is he afraid of? Someone else may come along and prove him wrong in the near future? Sure seem so.
Post a Comment